Moss Motors, Ltd

Hello,

I just purchased my first Sprite and am having some issues with it.  The car has brand new brakes and brake lines all around.  Although everything is new, the front brakes seem to stick and do not release.  The car has a ton of rolling resistance because of this and its burning up the brakes!  I went through the drums and calipers and tried to limber up everything as much as I could.  The clutch seems to work fine as well but it does engage as a very very low pedal point..There is no slippage and it goes through the gears fine.

 

After driving it today for the first time, I realized that brake fluid was leaking down the pedals onto my shoes.  I checked the master cylinder and it seems to be leaking at the push rod seals.  Could it be just an old tired master cylinder that is not releasing my brakes, leaking and is just ready for replacement?    

 

Another problem I found was that when I stop the car, there is a small hole on the bottom of the transmission below the clutch and it is leaking oil through that.  The hole has a cotter pin in it right now...I am assuming that is a drain for the bell housing?  Maybe the rear seal of the engine is leaking into there?  I also realized that the oil pressure was very low! very low to 12psi idling and about 20 to barely 30 driving.   Any suggestions?

 

Thanks very much!

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1965 Sprite Project!!!!

Moss sells brake master cylinder repair kits which may correct the leakage problem, that is, if the cylinder bore is in good shape. ( No signs of wear, deep scratching or pitting.) If the bore looks questionable, a new master cylinder is in order.

Can you tell if the bell housing leak is motor oil or transmission gear oil? ( Gear oil has a bit of a 'punget' smell quite unlike motor oil) If it is motor oil you may have a rear seal leak. If it's gear oil you may have a transmission front spline seal leak. 

Get a compression check done to see if your engine is within 'spec's'. If it's not, you may need an overhaul. If it is, you may have an oil gauge issue.  

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...one mustn't criticize other people on grounds where he can't stand perpendicular himself. - Mark Twain

Hey there R,

Welcome to the forum. I own 2 spridgets ('68 - 1275 & '76 - 1500) and although I have experience with them, I am no expert, so double check everything I'm going to write.

First problem, - oil pressure. There could be many reasons for this, most of them B-A-D! Have you tried another gauge yet? They are notorious for going out of calibration. You can borrow one or buy one for about $20 from any auto parts store. Just disconnect the line from the engine (back, right side - to the left of the distributor), and hook up the new one. If they both agree, then you have a problem, but you MAY get lucky here. Try this first. If you DO have a problem, the engine / tranny will probably have to come out (its best to remove them together).

Definitely get the compression checked too. For reference, the compression on my recently rebuilt '68 is 180 (+/-1) lbs. on all 4. Report back with the numbers.

Second - The hole and cotter pin under the tranny are correct. That is a drainage hole, and the pin keeps it clear from debris that make block it. Since the gear oil is the same as the engine oil, 20W-50, the only real way to tell which is leaking is to check the level of the gearbox oil. On the left side of the bell housing, below and in front of the gear shifter, there is an access hole with a rubber body plug. Lift the carpet (if so equipped), and remove the rubber body plug. You will see a bolt (5/8ths) in the tranny. This is the fill hole. Remove that bolt and the oil should be visible at the top. Total capacity is 2 US quarts of 20W-50.

Third, on to the breaks. You definitely need to rebuild the MC. The kit is cheap and easy to install. Removing the MC for service is the hardest part of the job. That being said, this will not solve your stuck front break problem though. There is a balancing valve in the system which equalizes the pressure between the front and rear breaks. It's mounted in the engine compartment on the right side outer wall. It should be found under your coil somewhere, just follow the line from the MC, you'll find it. Inside that valve is a slide that moves back and forth to equalize the pressure. It may be stuck. These valves are expensive, but very easy to rebuild rather than replace. Try checking that.

4th - The clutch. There can be a few reasons for what you describe, but my vote is just air in the line as these are tricky to properly bleed. In any event, I wouldn't touch it yet since it works fine right now. Plus, if you do have to remove the engine, that would be the time to really check things out and for the money, replace the clutch and throw-out bearing. The bearing is made of graphite and if you're prone to keeping your foot on the clutch, you'll be replacing it often. Your foot should be on fire every time you push in that clutch!

All things considered here, you have a great car! Don't get discouraged. There are many great folks on this forum whom will help you, and all the parts that you may need are readily available. It took me 3 years to complete the restoration on my '68 Sprite (pictured in my avatar), and although the work got tedious at times, the worry free driving and head turning more than compensates. Take things one step at a time, it's all doable and you'll end-up with a great ride!

 Cheers!

 

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

Thanks so much for the help! I am 21 and have found that very few people know about these cars....so I really appreciate the input. 

 

This week I am going to check the oil pressure issue. I did check the compression last week and had 150 +/- 1lb on all 4 cylinders with 5 revolutions of the engine per each cylinder.  What is the suggested range?

 

The oil leaking from the drain on the bottom of the bell housing seems to be engine oil.  My oil dropped at least half a quart within a small period of time.  If it is the rear main..is that a hard to change?

 My water pump bearing sounds like hell so I am changing the water pump as well!!! The engine is very quiet with minimal chatter otherwise. 

I am ordering  the brake MC repair kit today and will re-build it this week.  Is there anything in particular I should watch out for?

 

Thanks!

 

Ryan

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1965 Sprite Project!!!!

Ryan,

Your compression numbers sound fine. The thing about compression is that all the cylinders should be the same, and yours are. When parts (rings, valves etcetera) start to wear out, those numbers will begin to be different. With 150 on all 4, I'd say that the engine is wearing evenly...that's good!

Now on to the oil leak...ouch! How much oil are you loosing? Me thinks you'll soon be removing this engine and transmission. There is a plate and gasket on the back of the engine. That gasket OR the oil pump gasket may have given-up the ghost. Doing the work is easy once you pull the engine and tranny. At this point, I would also change the oil pump, clutch and throw-out bearing.

Pulling the engine isn't that tough, but you will need to remove the hood. Borrow or rent a crane along with a load balancer because you're going to have to change the angle quite drastically as you pull it out.

Remember though, British cars and fluid leaks go together like ham and eggs!  

On to the MC repair. It isn't tough to do, but getting the thing out of the car is an exercise in dexterity. Don't be surprised if you end-up turning the mounting bolts only 1/8th of a turn before readjusting your wrench. Replacing the guts in there is very easy once you get the C-clip off. When you remove the plunger and spring, run your finger up and down in there. If you feel any gouges or ridges, you may need a new MC.

By the way...your best investment is a manual for this car. I have a few, but the one I go to most often is the Haynes 66015 (265). It saw me all the way through the restoration to my '68, and I'm using it for my current project too (a '76 Midget). The combination of that book and the guys on this forum is tough to beat.

Good luck!

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

Something just occoured to me...you have a Mk III, hu? A 1965 with the 1098 cc engine.

Like I said, I'm not and expert, but everything I wrote should still be CLOSE to accurate!

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

I apologize for originally posting on the wrong section of the forum!  I didn't see the Sprite section I guess. 

The car is a MKIII and has the 1098cc.  In a repair manual that came with the car, I found a page documenting the engine being rebuilt.  It was bored .40 over, ported and polished, with all new internals.  Unfortunately there was no date! I am assuming it was from around 80's as thats when the book was copyrighted and it has clearly been used a lot!  They also said, with the modifications the car is about 1200cc's now. 

 

So today, I changed the oil because I know the old oil was quite a few years old.  I used 3 qts of Castrol 20w-50 and 1 qt of bars leak rear main stop leak as a last resort before pulling the engine for the leak.  My oil pressure jumped right up!  It now reads 40 idling and up to 60 revving!!  I let it warm up to operating temp and the pressure stayed the same.  It also did not leak, but I didnt drive it yet. 

 

As far as the MC goes, i ordered the repair kit today and will attempt the rebuild wedneday.  I'll also see if the stop leak will slow the leak enough to drive it for a little while.  Also going to replace the water pump while I am at it.  

 

I'll update soon!

 

Thanks,

 

 Ryan

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1965 Sprite Project!!!!

Good going with the Bars, lets hope that works. It might if the engine has sat for an extended period of time. Gaskets dry-up when they do, so this stuff might be just right for your car.

Be careful about oils though. Your engine has flatt tappets and requires an additive called ZDDP. The extra Zinc is needed to lubricate those tappets or they will be damaged!

Almost all of today's oils do NOT have ZDDP!!! It was silently removed a few years ago. I buy the ZDDP additive from Moss, and add it whenever  I change oil. Make sure that you have ZDDP in there!

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

Ryan,

I'm afraid the Barr's isn't going to do much. This engine, like all "A" series motors, has no rear main seal. It uses a scroll (a kind of thread) cut into the rear portion of the crankshaft, in close proximity to the block and a plate screwed to the block, to "screw" the escaping oil back into the crankcase. As I'm sure you can imagine, this method is a bit wanting by modern standards. Some "spotting" is normal. But, you don't have to accept the leaking.

There is a kit available from our host and others, which allows you to install a modern lip type oil seal. So if you do wind up removing the engine, you may exercize that option.

This car's brake system does not have a "balancing valve". It uses what we call a "single line" brake system. You will find fittings and tees in the line, but no valves.

With the master cylinder out, try those front wheels again for rotational resistance. If they still drag, open the bleeders and try. Still dragging? They need to be overhauled.

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Motrbill66 (& Ryan)

Thank God you're here motorbill! It's comforting to have you over my shoulder on this one!

Ryan, when I told you to double check everything I was writing, I wasn't kidding.  Motorbill66, Bill Young, poolboy, enfroprefect and many others have a centuries worth of experience. Motorbill and Bill Young do this stuff to "pay the mortgage".

My advice is a guide from an electronics guy with two British "toys". Yes I have experience, but if they say black when I say white...it's black!

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

I didnt use the ZDDP!  I will have to add it in.

 I took the master cylinder out and re-built it tonight.  It was very straight forward and easy to do.  I hope it works well.  The clutch and brake bore were very smooth with no scratches or gouging.  Hopefully a little time and $13 will fix a $300-400 part. 

 The oil leak has definetely slowed!  It still leaks enough to add 1 qt of oil per week I would say...This means the engine and trans are coming out soon. 

 The brakes only would stick when I would apply the pedal about 50% of the time.  I knew when the brakes were going to stick because the pedal felt spongy.  When the pedal felt normal, the brakes were much more effective and did not stick.  Hopefully, with the MC being re-built and clean lines with no air...they will not stick anymore.

 

Thanks

Ryan

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1965 Sprite Project!!!!

I put the Master Cylinder back in a few minutes ago.  Although I did not bleed the lines yet, The brake side does not seem to return and the clutch side returns about 2/3 of the way.  Any reason for this?  Also, how would I go about bleeding the clutch?

 

I appreciate your responses

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1965 Sprite Project!!!!

Rwexler,

As for your clutch bleeding question, we discussed that a while ago on this forum. There were plenty of good suggestions and anecdotes. Here's the link.... http://www.mossmotors.com/forum/forums/thread/14241.aspx  If you still have questions, chime back in.

Now on to the breaks. When you write that the slide isn't returning all the way, that is to be expected since the system still has air in there. Without a full line of break fluid, the pressure from the return springs at the wheels cannot be transmitted back to the MC. Bleed the breaks first before chasing your tail trying to solve a problem that may not even exist.

Good luck

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

The others are correct, there is no rear main seal, nor is there a seal in the front of the gearbox.  It is very common to see oil where you describe and unless you are willing to do a butt load of work, it won't get better. It is, however, not the cause of the low pressure, since thats most likely bearing wear and/or to low a viscocity of oil.  I would change it to get rid of the barrs leaks stuff ASAP.  I have a personal distaste for oil additives.

The problem with the rear leak is that any oil supplied to the rear main bearing, oozes out of the bearing towards the front and the rear as its supposed to.  The oil that goes to the front just dribbles down into the pan.  The oil that goes to the rear goes into a radial channel with a slinger and has an oil retun hole at the bottom, maybe 5/16 " in diameter.  The most common flaw in this setup is that the joint that exists between the rear main bearing cap and the block is supposed to have a  sealant on it (Hylomar jointing compound, I think).  I have never pulled down an A series engine that had a trace of any.  Under oil pressure (70psi cold) oil is not only supplied to the bearing, but also forces its way between the cap and the block.  The pan gasket, weak as it is, will not stop it.  You can replace the pan gasket and slow it down and it may not leak initially, but it will within a few days.

I hear you saying to yourself, HA, I'll just pull the motor and seal up that cap...and it will stop that leak, but the first time you warm it up and accellerate hard, most of the oil in the pan sloshes to the back of the pan and restricts the return hole in the rear bearing cap so some oil does escape out the very rear of the motor because the slinger is now overwhelmed.  The slinger works great as long as you don't actually drive it.  You can Idle in the driveway all day and never seep a drop.

There is a rear main seal kit for Spridgets and I have one, but the backs of the cranks are all a little different and I had to pull my motor 3 times to get it to stop.  The seal is 10mm thick and I only had 9mm of crank.   I had to partially install the seal and have 2 mm machined off of the flywheel boss. to get it to work.  In retrospect, I'd be just as happy to live with the leak, for all the trouble it was. 

Brakes sticking can be caused by a plugged return hole in the MC, or not enough pedal/MC clearance, or a swollen flex line (swollen internally).  With disk, the seals in the caliper can swell with age, or the inside of the caliper body can corrode causing a mechanical bind with the pistons.  Drum cylinders can suffer from this corrosion issue too. The test as to which one it is is a simple as cracking the bleeder valve.  If the brakes free up when the valve is cracked (it will spurt a small amount of fluid), then the problem is in the fluid return to the MC.  If the brake does not free up when you do this, then the caipers need an overhaul or replacement.

Best of luck ... and welcome to the joyful world of owning an old car :)

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-Michael

Oil pressure is made by engine clearances @ the crankshaft.The only way to check this accurately is to remove the oilpan and remove a rod and a maincap and inspect the bearings. Your 1st step should be to install a manual oil pressure tester at the point where the oil pressure lie for the gauge comes off of the engine.If you get the proper reading at that point the pressure relief valve in the oil pump could be an issue or the mains and rod bearing clearances could be to great.You can inspect these as forementioned. They should be perfectly smooth and no signs of copper color. They should be grayish in color.The crankshaft  journal(the area where the bearing rides)should be perfectly smooth also. You can take your fingernail and scratch across it and should be smooth as glass. The oil that is leaking out the drain hole is either trans oil or engine oil. One smells different than the other.90w has a distinct odor compared to engine oil. The compression is acceptable but low if your readings are accurate. When taking compression the accelerator should be to the floor. I prefer a cylinder leakdown test which is a step above a compression test as you are putting compressed air into the cylinder and you can tell where it is escaping and how much(%) you will hear air in the intake,exhaust,or the crankcase. As far as compression most manufacture's these days look for eveness between cylinders and it's even hard to find compression specs. for newer vehicles because of this. I have been a professional tech since the 70's and currently am a BMW factory trained specialist.