Moss Motors, Ltd

When I get my 65 3000 up up about 55 mph I get a pretty good shake in the front end. It feels like the ball joints are gone but i don't think these have ball joints. My best guess is the wire wheels are out of balance. If so, does this require a specialist? Any ideas?

It does sound like out of balance tires, or non-true wheels. Most likely the tire balance. This doesn't require a 'specalist' as such, but correct balancing of wire wheels and tires does require a bit different type of adaptor on the balancing machine than most shops regularly see. To correctly locate a British wire wheel it needs to be mounted so that the inner taper of the hub and the outer flat surface of the hub are the points in contact with the machine. Some shops have adaptors for this, but I think that if the wheel was simply reversed on the machine it might also work. Other than that, the process is the same unless you had a really old type that couldn't take the rim weights common today. Don't know what part of the country you're in, but there are several shops around that specialize in working on wire wheels and know what they're doing when it comes to truing and balancing.

If the cars been sitting for a while in storage, you might just have a flat spot on the tires which should gradually work out as they get up to normal operating temperatures.

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'73 Midget (V6)
'59 MGA (I6) under construction

"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"

I had the same problem in my 62 3000.  Then one day a guy pulled along side while I was driving and said, "Cool car, but your front struts are bad."  That was when I realized the steering wheel was shaking because a front tire was bouncing up and down as I drove down the road.  The faster I drove, the worse the steering wheel shook. 

I fixed the problem by installing re-built shocks in the front.  At first I thought I could solve the problem by refilling my front shock oil, but the reason they were low on oil was because the seals had failed a long time ago.  Anyway, it took a little bit of time and effort (compared to modern cars) to replace the front shocks, but the steering wheel doesn't shake anymore.

 -John

Good shocks or bad, something makes those wheels shake. New shocks can mask bad kingpins or slight imbalance, but the constant straining against the shocks will eventually show. Keep your wheels in balance for maximum front suspension and shock life.

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

I have this same issue on my '67 3000.  The whole car shakes from 30 to 50 mph.  Above that, the shaking is a lot less noticable.  I just bought the car and it's been sitting in the former owners garage for two years.  I don't know if it's flat spotting or wheel balance or a suspension issue, but I really need to get it fixed.

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Heale Jim,

When you say the whole car shakes from 30 to 50 you set off my alarm. Imbalance won't generally show up at such a low speed. Also, front tire problems are usually felt through the steering wheel primarily. If the wheels/tires are out of round you could get some of this effect, but it really shouldn't go away by 50 MPH. I think it's just possible you have a bent driveshaft. It's hard to say without being there to drive it, but if the WHOLE CAR shakes, it's a real possibility.

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Thanks Motorbill,

 

I'll get that checked out.  I will have the wheels on a balancer tomorrow to see if that helps at all as well.

 

Jim 

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Proper balancing of wire wheels can be a pain. Not too many shops have the correct adaptors, but there is hope.....

I have had great sucess with balancing the wire wheels by finding a tire shop that has what is called a "Road Force" balancing machine.This type balancing machine actually runs the tire against a roller insteed of just flinging it around in space. Hate to admit this, but I learned this from Miata owners. Seems there is an inherant balance problem in the early Miata's, and this type of balancing is the cure. 3 of my Healey owning customers have had this done, and it works.

Worth a few phone calls..........

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"Cogito ergo Zoom"
"Love your freedom? Thank a Veteran"

An added thought-

When you balance the wheel and tire on the car as mad mike suggests, you are balancing the whole rotating assembly of the wheel, tire, hub, and disc or drum brake as a unit. This gives you far superior results. However, since the whole tamale is balanced as a unit when you take off a wheel or tire it must be put back in exactly the same position on the same hub or you will lose the balance.

LCJUTILA 

LCJUTILA,

Sorry my friend, but you are confusing this type of balancer with the old spin it on the car type. This machine balances the wheel and tire OFF the car. It is indeed a spin type balancer, but a much improved method.

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"Cogito ergo Zoom"
"Love your freedom? Thank a Veteran"

As they use to say in Charlie Chan movies-

AH-SO 

LCJUTILA 

So is there a method to determine if the driveshaft is the issue without removing it?

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For what it's worth, which probably isn't much.  My Dad bought a new 67 3000 when I was 16.  I guess I just gave up my age.LOL  Anyway, one thing I remember about that car was it was really sensitive to wheel balance.  Had it back to the dealer, naturally they blamed the tires bla bla bla.  We came across a guy that had a Hunter on the car spin balancer and he was willing to get the adapter for wire wheels.  Once we had them done that way the car was nice & smooth.  As Mike sugests, there are surely beter more modern balance machines these days.  I am talking 40yrs ago!!  The dealer was useing a bubble balancer if any of you remember them.  So much for nastalgia.  Good luck

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72 MGB 80 TR8
Pittsburgh PA

Jim,

I'm still stuck on the remark that indicates that the entire car shakes as early as 30 MPH. If you had a front tire/wheel balance problem, it would likely not show up at such a low speed. Although, if the front shock(s) were in trouble, as in leaking badly, a grossly bad balance problem might show at a low speed. To check for a bent drive shaft you'll have to put the car up and examine it from beneath. Simply turn it and watch for out of roundness. A little tiny bit (up to 3/32nds or so) is acceptable. Also look for dents in the tube. When these shafts are manufactured or professionally rebuilt, they are balanced. Look for a square or rectangular piece of steel about 1/16th to 1/8th thick, to be welded near one end. If you don't see one, look for a spot where it may have been, indicated by some obvious spot welding marks. They've been known to depart... Finally, make sure that the drive shaft is phased correctly. The front and rear U-Joint crosses should have their arms parallel, not at some random angle. This is for reasons that would take another two paragraphs to explain. Trust me when I say that it's for reasons of geometrical interference. Once you determine that all this is copacetic, make sure that the balance marks across the shaft sliding joint are aligned. There will be a poorly stamped arrows (it usually looks like a check mark) on each component. These must face each other for the careful balancing job done during manufacturing to be effective. Lastly, check two things about how the shaft is secured into the system. One, obviously, is to see that it's tight. The other is to see that the correct bolts have been used. The real thing has a very slight shoulder which makes it a semi-tight fit in the flanges. If the threaded portion of the bolt is in contact with the hole in the flange, you definately have the wrong bolts. They tend to loosen and oval out the holes in the flanges. If in doubt, whether this is the problem or not, order new sets. They're inexpensive. One last thing. Check the rear wheels/tires for out of true. It's that "whole car shakes" thing again. 

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Jim-

I would check the condition of the universal joints by grabbing the drive shaft on each side of each one seperately and twisting back and forth against yourself to see if you can generate any movement in them. Any discernable movement is too much. Clearly mark the positioning of the driveshaft and Replace them.

 Another  sign of bad universal joints sometimes is that the problem is worse on either acceleration or deceleration.

 The vibration could also be caused by tread separation on the tires. Look at the outside  AND inside of the tires to check.

To check if it is the driveshaft that is balanced you could isolate it by SECURELY putting the car on a lift or jack stands, remove the rear wheels to take them out of the vibration equation, and then start and operate the car SLOWLY bringing the speed up to thirty or fourty mph.  If it vibrates its the driveshaft.USE COMMON SENSE AND BE CAREFUL!  DO NOT BE A SHOW-OFF, DO NOT REV THE ENGINE,DO NOT GET UNDER THE CAR_DO NOT WEAR LOOSE CLOTHING_ DO NOT HAVE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE AREA OR TALKING TO YOU!  IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE CAR COULD START VIBRATING SEVERELY AND COME OFF THE JACKSTANDS.

You could run the car in fourth gear in overdrive to minimize engine speed. 

LCJUTILA