Moss Motors, Ltd

just been out for a spin in my 73 b.its running quite well,but still needs a few tweaks here and there,as part of a lifetime rolling  restoration project.

I  was daydreaming when i was listening to the lovely exhaust note coming from the stainless exhaust and got to thinking,what the original brand new mgb gt might  have been  like ,when recieved from the factory all those years ago,but can anyone remember?

Did they start first time?   how long did the original  lucas batteries last ? was the engine quiet - no rattles ? what about the oil pressure ? has my lovingly cared for pride and joy mgb [ my dads old car] which now gives me loads of pleasure whenever  we go for a spin ,lost any power over the years,compared to a new one?.

How do the mgs that we lovingly  lavish a lot of time and effort /cash on,compare to the original brand new item.Does anyone remember,does it matter,who knows !

 

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phil wilkins

Phil,  What a GREAT question!

Although I know several people who own, or have owned one of these cars, none of them actually bought one from the showroom! It seems that the only way to have purchased a British car was if it was used, and sometimes it even had to come home on a flatbed!

I lay claim to owning 3 of these cars (past and present), and can assure you that they were in much worse shape before I bought them.

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that these cars, collectively, are probably better TODAY thanks to the love and devotion of the caretakers, than they were when purchased, brand new from the showroom...Just a hunch. 

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

my first sports car was a 53 TD  followed by a new 60 bugeye followed by a new 1600 MGA followed by a new Morgan plus 4 in 1961.    lots of problems with the sprite,   i didn't have the mga long to see any problems and i drove the morgan almost 100,000 miles  with only 1 easy problem at 7m  a water pump.       no other problems.    tom

Phil-

I remember my brother taking me to the not so local Lotus dealership in 1973. It was on route 22 in N.J. maybe near Cranford or Union. My brother was five years older  than me and at  the time that put him at the ripe age of 18.  I was 13. We drove down there in my mom's 1965 Chrysler New Yorker which was a very nice American car. On the way my brother tried to explain what the big deal was about Lotuses and I wasn't buying what he was selling.

I remember us arriving at the dealership and it being quite small. We parked and went inside and the only car on display was a 1973 Lotus Europa Special, Fly Yellow. It sat up on a podium toward the back of the room. There was a desk on the  left at which sat a somewhat rumpled salesman. My brother, who was rather bold, announced that we were there to check out the new Lotuses. The salesman dryly announced,"There it is," while gesturing toward the car. I looked over at it and it was like a toy. I had never seen anything like it in my life! I didn't know what to make of it.

My brother was extremely excited and asked the salesman if he could get inside. "Sure" the salesman  said. My brother, who was 6'4', folded himself into it while I watched. He wiggled around trying to make himself comfortable. "Geez", he said,"There isn't enough room for my feet!"

He wore a size thirteen plus shoe and at the  time he was wearing square-toed boots. The Lotus, known for its extremely small toe-box, had defeated him. There was no way to push on the accelerator without applying the brakes!

"Let me try, I think I can fit," I said .

So he got out and I got in.

On situating myself I realized this warnt no Chrysler! The center console w/ the steel backbone was at armpit height with a very stubby gearshift that was topped by a walnut wood knob that showed FIVE SPEEDS! Wow, Crazy! What did you need that for? Plus there were all these instruments. I didn't even know what half of them were. And it was tiny inside. My size ten and  a half shoes could barely operate the pedals. I remember operating the turn signals and thinking they felt incredibly cheap. The whole control pod would move to the left and right when you flicked them. I sat in the car on sensory overload for a while and then crawled out.

"What do you think?," my brother asked.

"What apiece of junk!," I replied. "Why would anyone ever buy on of those? Its damned expensive!"

"That's the best handling car ever made! That's why somebody would buy it," he replied.

 

Thirty-three years later I did buy one. I purchased it from the estate of the original owner. He had had a car accident in another car he owned and was injured to the point that he could no longer get in and out of the car so it sat for six years until he passed away and I purchased it. At the time it was not running. True to form, the turn signal pod was loose.

My brother, in the mean time, had grown terminally ill. He and I had been on  the outs  and not spoken for many years. I didn't have the heart to tell him I had gotten a Lotus because my life had turned out much better than his and he was having a very hard time of it. He subsequently passed away.

Shortly after his death I got the Lotus running again. I was sitting in it in my  garage with the motor running, revving it a little and listening to the sound of the engine when I felt my brother's presence in the  car with me. He was sitting in  the passenger seat smiling but he didn't say a word.

 

LCJUTILA 

 

 

 

 

 

lcjutila

I was touched by your lovely reply.

I too have many memories of years gone by,when my dad was alive,and used to take me out in his beloved  mg.

He would take me to the pub on a sunday lunchtime,when i was a teenager and treat me to a pint of beer and a bag of crisps.On the way back he would give the car a bit of a blast,to clear out all the carbon,or muck as he used to say.

I remember him coming round in the mg to see his grandchildren every weekend.

I remember.

Its no ordinary mg that i now own,its a very special one.

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phil wilkins

Awesome stuff.

When my parents met at Syracuse University in the late 60s my dad had a 67? Chevelle SS and my mom had an MGB, I don't know what year. They subsequently got married and my dad would work on her MGB and order parts from a strange sounding town in California - Moss Motors in "Go-let-a". (Actual pronunciation is "Go-lee-ta".) When he graduated and got a job offer from Santa Barbara Research Center, they were excited to move across country, and got an apartment in - Goleta. Before the move they sold the MGB and drove across country in the Chevelle (probably a better choice just for usable space as a "moving van"). My mom always wanted another MGB but she never got one. 

Thanks for sharing your stories! 

Christine 

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Christine Knight
Marketing Assistant

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I suppose I can come as close as anyone to answering the original question, as I worked in a couple of dealerships back in the late sixties and early seventies, when these cars were sort of "in the prime" of their lives.

My first automotive job was as a beginner mechanic at a Rover/Land Rover dealer in Northern New Jersey. I worked on lots of imports back then, from all the European makers, and of course, prepped and performed repair and warranty work on Rover Vehicles. Stories? Oh, I got stories all right, but that's for another time.

From there, I went to work for a multi-line dealer who sold Saabs, Jaguars, MGs, Triumphs, and Fiats. So I prepped and drove a lot of brand new vehicles. After this four or five years of experience, I chose British cars as my favorites for reasons I'll outline some other time, and among them, MGs, as feeling the most tightly put together and pleasing to drive. Jaguars, even the new V-12 E-Types, which would smoothly swoop up to 120 MPH, didn't do it for me. They just seemed too big and cumbersome. But that's just me. Saabs? Nice, competent, fairly easy (at that time) to service, and not too troublesome, but just not quite my sporting cup of tea. Fiats? Ugh. Oh yeah, on to the point.

So, how did these TRs, Jags, and MGs feel then as compared to now? This question is tougher than it may seem. The cars change as a result of aging, but so did I! When I try to recollect the feel of a new MGB, I remember that it was generally a pleasurable experience to drive a sports car of ANY brand that was new and had no defects at all. And I must say, MG quality control was pretty good back then. I don't recall major problems with the cars as delivered, and not all that much major warranty work. Most problems were associated with abuse through misunderstanding by the customer. But even that doesn't seem to be what's on the mind of the original poster. Isn't the real question something like, "Were the new MGs and TRs better or worse than the restored examples found today?"

The answer depends on how well the restoration was done, doesn't it? If the base chassis/body combination is VERY solid and rust free, and if EVERY component is restored to factory (back then) fresh condition, and NO compromises are made for time or expense, then yes, the car can indeed be as good as, or better than, the new one from back then, at least in terms of quality and reliability. So the new question is, " How many restorations rise to that level?" the answer, I believe, using the broadest definition of the word "restoration", is not many. The reason is expertise and expense.

When you've built a couple hundred MGA and B engines, it's likely you've learned a thing or two. It's also likely you are a professional. Professional work on any component takes time and costs plenty. Would you REALLY like your MGA to present, drive, and please you like it would have when new? I'm afraid that in most cases, this means professional restoration. With today's overhead, parts quality problems, scarcity of truly good original stuff, and the salary of a guy who can deliver the goods and is still willing to work on this old stuff, get ready to pay 100K, or thereabouts. Shocked? Me too, and I've been doing this stuff as a pro for forty years. But this is the twenty first century my friends, and it is a struggle to stay in this business, even with cost cutting efficiencies, computer control, and outright sacrifice. Even at those prices. You can believe me for certain when I tell you I'm not getting wealthy at this. But, I digress, as usual.

The simple answer is that there's NOTHING like a new car for feeling smooth, confident, pretty, and swift, but if you spend enough, or work enough, with enough knowlege, you can get within a couple of hundredths of a percent of it.

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Folks-

When I was in elementary school, around the fourth grade, there was a teacher who had a brand new, stop sign red, chromed wire wheels, Triumph GT-6. It was absolutely gorgeous! Stunning. Ran great-looked great-sounded great. She drove it every day and believe me, if it weren't a good car she'd have gotten rid of it. She was one tough cookie!

 

On another note, it is true that a new car has a certain crispness to it but on reflection, I prefer to drive a car that I have  an intimate familiarity with that you only get after a certain period of ownership. This, to me, is one of the real positive attributes of a lot of the British Sports Cars. They tend to have a very straightforward, pure,honest driving and handling quality with no hidden quirks and rarely turn around and bite you. They may not be the fastest in a straight line or the quickest around a corner or coming to a stop but the balanced performance instills a confidence and joy in driving that is exceptional and gives the driver pure enjoyment while driving close to the car's limits. The sounds, the smells, the feedback- Awesome.

 

LCJUTILA 

I grew up in Britainland, and fondly remember the occasions (every 3 years or so) when we had a new car. No MGs, but I just remember, at age 5, we had our first really new car. A brand new Mini Clubman finally arrived and I remember Mum Dad and I riding out of the showroom in Nottingham, feeling just a little bit like royalty.... Of course, this was after the usual long wait due to delivery problems, industrial action and the first car being rejected by the dealer as there was something terminally wrong with it from the factory! It was, after all, Britain in the mid 70's .

Later cars, now much ridiculed examples of the Austin brand, seemed excellent at the time, and I remember my Dad loving the Allegro with its twin carb 1500cc engine, exotic 5 speed gearbox and front wheel drive.

My other favourite car then was my Grandpa's Morris Minor 1100, and I still have a huge fondness for them. I'd stay with my grandparents during summer holidays, and loved day trips in the Minor His was second-hand but practically perfect, and he kept it that way - after all he was a trained mechanic, and very meticulous. At times, I rather wish he'd been around to help me with the B - he'd have loved it.

If there's a point to my ramblings, perhaps it's this: Our cars still carry with them the spirit and character they did when they were contemporary (plus nostalgic value of course), even if our modern cars are so far ahead in design and development, they seldom have the outright character and, let's face it, basic feel of the older stuff. If the car is in decent shape you get 90%+ of what the original owner enjoyed - more if it's a good fresh restoration as has been said earlier. Chasing that ultimate newness will be costly, and it won't last very long.

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I want my MGB

Great answers guys,it leads to all sorts of thoughts in my mind.

It makes me realise that perhaps a brand new car,would not be anywhere  near as good as my classic B ,with all its memories,a heritage which has built up over the passing of the years.

I live in staffordshire in the uk.and on a fine saturday / sunday morning you can see all sorts of british classic cars being taken out for a spin by there proud owners.

What stands out for me personally,is that when say E-type jaguars were brand new,they were way out of my league price wise,and the somewhat posh owners would not even have given me  - a commoner ,a second glance.

Now ,how fantastic it feels when i,m out in my mg and owners of restored E-type jags will actually acknowledge my prescence with a friendly wave.

There would never have been anything like this when the cars were new,years ago.

In the uk.there is still  a large demand for old classic british cars,even with the credit crunch at its height,and many people out of work.long may this interest last,as there is no other feeling like owning a classic car.I have been to a few car shows this summer,and at one  i saw an mgb which someone had restored.It must have been in better condition than a new one,the engine bay etc.spotless.I agree that chasing after perfection all the time  is not always the way to go.

What i do sometimes wander,is if we can still drive these old cars as good as our parents used to drive them.sounds silly,but i  can still remember my dad driving the  B years ago,and he new exactly how to get the most out of it.When to change up the gears and when to slip it into overdrive mode etc.etc.to get optimum performance.After driving my high power - high performance soul-less boring modern car,and  then jumping into my B i wonder  sometimes if i am doing it justice.Then that TR6 or E-type drives past again,a quick wave and i,m back in 1973 again,there's nothing even comes close to this.

As for making much money from restoring classics.I think its probably the same whatever you do,unless you actually own the business you will never get rich.

Fantastic answers guys,fantastic site, perhaps Motorbill can enlighten us all with more memories / past experiances particularly mgb ones.Its all fascinating stuff.

 

 

 

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phil wilkins

Okay, guys. I can answer this with some authority, since I bought a brand-new 1972 - in 1972.

From September 1971 to April 1972 I had been on my second tour in Vietnam. The entire time, I had a picture of a TR-6 on my barracks wall and I dreamed of owning one when I returned to the states. Upon my return, the first car I bought was a 1963 Spitfire; go figure. That didn't turn out so well, so I went looking for a new car. I visited the Triumph dealership off of Baltimore Pike outside of Philadelphia and drooled over the shiny new TR-6s in the showroom. I tried one on for size, and was disappointed that I couldn't fit comfortably in one.

So I went in search of an MG. Havertown Auto Sales was an MG/Sunbeam/Simca dealer in Essington, PA, not far from my home. I drove over there to see if an MG would fit me. Walking into the dealership, the first thing I saw was a brand-new, harvest gold 1972 MGB roadster on a raised platform in the middle of the showroom. It sparkled in the spotlights and I stood mesmerized. The interior was in navy blue and had that new-car smell. There was a factory-installed oil cooler, but that was about all in the way of add-ons, if indeed that was an add-on. Working with the salesman, we agreed upon a price of around $3200.00; I have the bill of sale around here somewhere, but it was right around that price. I even bought the hardbound Chilton Repair and Tune-up Guide for $6.95; I still have the manual.

While in the Army, I had learned to drive a manual transmission and drove everything from an M151 Jeep up to a 5-ton wrecker, and I had owned the spitfire for a time, and driving the MG was a pleasure. The body was tight, the engine started first time every time (when properly chocked), and the time that I owned the car was relatively trouble-free. The Prince of Darkness did rear his ugly head about a month after I took ownership, however. The alternator went out on me and I had to take it to the dealership for replacement under warranty. The mechanic bent the engine cover when they tried to lower it without releasing the support, and then some time later an old guy in a Dodge Dart backed into me at a stop light denting the right front fender. But I truly enjoyed that car.

When I would go driving on the twisty Pennsylvania back roads, I sang a song that went something like this:

Driving along in my new MG,

taking the world in stri-ide.

Makin' it do what I want it to,

Life ain't passin' me byyyyy.

Driving along in my new MG...

The one thing that I remember most, other than that beautiful exhaust note, was the smell from the preservative burning off the exhaust system. I guess they had put some sort of preservative on the car back in England to protect it on the trip over, and it would burn off of the exhaust with a somewhat sweet odor. And under the hood, there were places where this waxy-like preservative had pooled and was difficult to remove.

During the fall, I drove to Gettysburg for a day. It was warm and sunny when I left that morning, but in the afternoon, the temperatures dropped to freezing. I attempted to put the top up, but the vinyl was so cold, I was afraid it would crack. So I sat at a gas station with the top partially up and the heater going full blast in order to soften up the top enough to fasten it down. On another trip to Northern Pennsylvania to visit my grandmother one winter weekend, I stayed warm as snug as a bug-in-a-rug. The heater performed flawlessly in the freezing temperatures and the car ran great! It wasn't terribly good at driving up a snow-packed road, but if the road was clear or there was just a dusting of snow, she did well. 

As an aside, when I was looking at the MG in the showroom, there was a white 1970 Jaguar XKE roadster in the used car lot priced at $5000. I looked it over and tried it on for size and although it was sweet car, it wasn't as comfortable as the MG! Odd.

So that's my experience with a brand-new MGB. 

Sad to say, the 1977 MGB that I drove up until recently is no more. I was on my way back from a car show in Sapulpa, OK when a kid in his mommy's Lincoln Town Car pulled out of a shopping center and ran into my right rear fender. He twisted the body and shredded the fender, so the insurance company totaled it. Cost to repair would have been well over the value of the car.

Happiness is a new MG!

zach

zach,

Are we talking about the "brake nightmare" car? Are you saying that it is no more? Are you looking for another? What's happening? Why do I ask so many questions?

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

motorbill,

I'm afraid it's true. A 16-year old kid, out for a joyride in his mommy's Town Car, pulled out of a shopping center and creamed my car. I've never seen metal tear like it did. And the body was twisted so badly that if you knealt down and looked at it from the rear, the right side was about an inch or so higher than the left, and the rear axle was knocked out of alignment. The thing is, the kid never even stopped, so I did a quick assessment, decided she was okay to give chase, and ran the guy down in city traffic. (I didn't put anyone in danger. I just kept him in sight and when he tried to duck behind an office complex to hide, I followed him in and confronted him and his buddies.) The car was valued at around $3500 (the insurance company couldn't figure out how to come up with a value) and the body shop said it would cost almost $5900 to repair it, so the insurance company totaled it. The kicker is that I was on my home from a car show in Sapulpa and was less than a mile from my home!

I looked for another MGB, but there were none available in Tulsa at the time. Right now, I'm driving a 1992 Mazda Miata and loving it. Not so much the interior room, as it is a little more cramped than the MG, but for its performance. That's the engine and gearbox I would love to have in an MGB! I know where there is a 1972 MGB in pieces and I've toyed with the idea of buying that and putting the MIata drivetrain in it. But I've got other more pressing issues on my plate right now. When I was looking for an MGB, there were none around. Now that I'm not looking, they're for sale all over the place! I saw one at the local Home Depot yesterday when I was out looking for a pumpkin for my daughter to carve. I spent a good amount of time talking to the owners and offered them the left over parts from my MG.

zach

zach,just a few thoughts about your posts.

I have an interest in WW2 military machines,tanks - planes etc,i used to make large scale models a few years ago.I wondered from your posting in vietnam,if you saw much action.My only recollection is from old news reports,tom cruise movies,and maybe the best 'true story movie ' we were soldiers with mel gibson as Lt.col.Hal moore.I didnt realise untill i saw this movie,that they still used the douglas skyraider for deploying napalm etc.

I wonder what it is like at gettysburg now,i have seen films and read books of the battle,it must be quite moving experiance  to go visit  there.

Apologies if you would sooner  not talk about vietnam etc. i do not have a morbid interest of the horrors of war ,just love to see and hear those old mustangs /corsairs etc.at airshows in the uk.. so back to mgs.Mine is a 73  GT   it is also harvest gold with a navy blue interior.I did wonder about that new car smell and how long it lasted for.Sorry to hear about your misfortune with 77 B.I seem to have a near miss on a regular basis in my modern car that i use to drive to work in,so sometimes when i,m driving my B  through a town with heavy traffic,i nearly end up a nervous  wreck being extra cautious.Going back to an old post of mine - classic car dilemma  i cannot personally agree with some of the modifications that some people carry out to there mgs.-mazda engine/drivetrain etc.in a B    it simply would mean that you drive somesort of kit car,and not an mgb as it was intended.I can only compare it to say-buying a dodge viper with 600 hp etc. etc. and then putting in a morris minor engine,and fitting a mini exhaust system etc.cannot understand it myself.

Happiness is a genuine original MGB

Regards

phil

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phil wilkins

Hello, Phil.

I can understand your feelings about not modifying MGs with modern drivetrains and all. My MG was a joy to drive as originally built. Well, almost as originally built. The previous owner put a Weber carburetor on it and I didn't like that. But I drove it from Kentucky to Oklahoma, a distance of about 900 miles, and received admiring looks and comments from many people. It was a comfortable ride and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience. If MGBs weren't so hard to come by here in Tulsa, I would be driving one now. But the Miata will have to do for now.

As for Vietnam, I wasn't a combat troop. Oh, we took our fair share of rockets and attacks on our perimeter, but I was a wrench turner on Hueys. I did have the opportunity to see AC-47s working outside our perimeter, which was awesome. And occasionally I would see F-100s and A-1D Skyraiders working out. But that's about it. Right now, I work at a small airport outside of Tulsa and we often have WWII aircraft fly through. Just last week, a B-17G came to town for a week and I had the pleasure of listening to its radial engines running as it taxied around outside our hangar, and made low-level passes over the field. And then there is the local P-51D that buzzes the field on occassion.

But this is an MG forum and I digress. I love British cars. Especially MGs and Jaguars. Triumphs have not been good to me, sorry to say.

zach