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Leaking Master Cylinder?

Last post 06-06-2009, 8:12 AM by enfoprefect. 88 replies.
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  •  02-15-2007, 5:11 PM 4509

    Leaking Master Cylinder?

    My 1977 MGB has brake fluid coming from the Servo Boost assembly where it mounts on the firewall.  Not knowing how the servo and master cylinder work, is the leak coming from the master cylinder and just passing through the servo?  The Moss catalog lists it as NA, but they do list a repair kit. Any thoughts?  Do I need to disassemble the master cylinder and servo to determine where the problem lies?

    Zach 

  •  02-15-2007, 7:28 PM 4513 in reply to 4509

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    The master cylinder is leaking. See if there is a trail of brake fluid leading to the firewall under the servo,which is pnuematic not hydraulic.Brake fluid is corrosive so clean it up with liberal amounts of water before it eats the paint and starts the rust going..After you replace the M/C you can check the servo for air leaks without having to disconnect the fittings of the M/C. To check that run engine until normal operaying temp is reached.Then kill it. Wait 10 min, apply footbrake and listen for the sound of air rushing into the unit. This will indicate that it is holding the necessary vacuum and it is OK. However if brake fluid was sucked into the servo and did leak out at the firewall then you will have a vacuum leak and need to replace with a rebuilt unit. I wouldn't try to rebuilt that yourself.  Ken 
  •  02-16-2007, 8:20 AM 4523 in reply to 4513

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    Speaking from experience, IF your servo is good, remove all the fluid that you can.  The fluid can really clog up the check valve on the servo.  I was able to shove some shop towels through the hole and leave them in there to soak up what has been expelled into the inside of the servo. 

    I would also suggest replacing the rubber grommet that the check valve fits through; really helps eliminate any vacuum leaks.

  •  02-16-2007, 1:40 PM 4532 in reply to 4523

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    Thanks poolboy and fleshy1.  Checked locally for a master cylinder and they wanted $450.00.  Moss has one for $270.00, so I think I will just go ahead and order that. 

    Thanks again. 

  •  02-16-2007, 3:14 PM 4537 in reply to 4532

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    You are welcome, Zach. You might find one on Ebay at a good price. Ken
  •  02-17-2007, 7:39 AM 4549 in reply to 4537

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    I would dissasemble the one you have and check the bore.  If it's not corroded too badly, it could be rebuilt for a fraction of the cost of a whole unit.  Chances are good that it's junk but it's worth a try.
    72 MGB 80 TR8
    Pittsburgh PA
  •  02-26-2007, 7:34 PM 4801 in reply to 4549

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    Underdog,

    I pulled the old master cylinder off the car and found that it was an old rebuild unit that had been bored oversize.  Decided to replace it with a new one from Moss.  Installed the new one on the car and tried to bleed it.  Thought I had gotten all the air out, but still have a soft pedal.  I'm planning on re-bleeding it tomorrow night, if my wife or daughter can help.  There was a problem with the brake light staying on, but I replaced the new switch with the one off of the old master cylinder and it goes out like it's supposed to now.  Any ideas on how to better bleed the system?

    Zach

  •  02-26-2007, 11:24 PM 4804 in reply to 4801

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    zach,

    Lots of people seem to have problems with effective brake bleeding. I've run a British car business for a long time and I have seen actual paid, otherwise competent, professionals have a hard time with it too. From watching them I've come to the conclusion that the problem isn't one of understanding, but one of communication.

    When you have specialised equipment( pressure or vacuum bleeder) it isn't too much trouble because the person doing the job is working alone and doesn't have to coordinate with anyone but him or herself. Two person bleeding requires good back and forth communication and coordination between two folks who may not understand what the other is saying, thinking, or doing. This invariably means air in the system, and an unsatisfying result. The first thing you have to do is to establish some agreement, or convention, as to terms and actions. Next, you need to divide up the jobs. There are two jobs. One I call the wet man. This is the one who works the wrenches and determines the results. The wet man is the one who will get the most exercise, but is also the COMMANDER! The other is called the pedal man. His (or her) only job is to push the pedal down when told to do so, and to release the pedal when instructed. You cannot have two bosses and get this job done properly, believe me. Here's how it's done:

    First, the pedal man sits in the car and agrees that he will only do what the COMMANDER (I'll bet that's you) tells him to do, and to call out in a clearly audible voice each time he has completed that function.

    Second, The COMMANDER fills the master cylinder with fluid and determines whether or not he wants to bleed the master cylinder in place. Frankly, I have found that this is rarely needed if you do the rest of the job correctly. Many folks resort to it after having limited or no success with wheel bleeding. That's because of the lack of communication I'm writing this long-winded diatribe to address.

    Third, the COMMANDER (hereinafter no longer capitalized lest your HEAD needs bleeding) goes to the wheel furthest from the master cylinder (no doubt the right rear in this case), and positions himself comfortably so as to see clearly what is coming out of the bleed fitting. Put a pan and/or rags under this location to catch the outflow. No, I don't reccomend a hose or a jar or any other paraphenalia. These will only serve to get in the way and eventually keep you from closing the bleed screw promptly, which is crucial to success. Now you will begin to see why I call the commander the "wet man". When you are positioned correctly, with plenty of light, open the bleed screw and call out the single word command, "DOWN!" Now, the pedal man pushes the brake pedal down with a smooth, firm, relatively forceful stroke. This is done in one motion, as far as the pedal will go. When the pedal has reached the extent of its travel, IT IS HELD THERE. You listening, pedal man? Once the pedal has reached bottom, the pedal man waits a half second and calls out the single word, "DOWN!" He does not let the pedal up now! he holds it there firmly and awaits further instruction.

    Now the wet guy closes the bleed screw and when it is gently but definately closed, he calls out, "UP!"

    Next, the pedal man waits about a second, and gets his foot the heck off the pedal! When he has determined that the pedal has reached its highest position (with his or her eyes. Don't you touch that sucker) he waits about two seconds and echos the command, "UP!" The one or two seconds gives the master cylinder time to "equalise" and replenish fluid from the resevoir into the operating cylinder.

    And so it goes. With each cycle the wet guy (the commander) observes the stream of fluid issuing from the fitting, and when it is nice and air free, he is done with that wheel. Of course he ends with the pedal down and the screw closed. Don't forget to then call "UP!" That's my most frequent mistake. It's always great to call for the down stroke on the next wheel and have the pedal man declare, "It's already down, Dummy!", or worse yet, to let the pedal up and then push it down!! He then moves to the next closest wheel and starts the process again.

    A few pointers: Check the fluid level in the resevoir after each five or six strokes. I know this is more exercise than you were hoping for, but having to start all over again because of the cylinder going dry is far worse. Make sure the pedal man understands that at no time should he (or she) interpret your actions as any reason to lift off the pedal (or for that matter to push it down) ONLY YOUR ORDERS are a reason to act.

    I DO NOT reccomend pumping the pedal at any time. This will only serve to agitate the fluid and thus introduce tiny air bubbles into the system, which will result in a spongy pedal.

    Sometimes, before starting the process, it is helpful to open that furthest bleed screw and wait for fluid to start trickling out if the system has been dry. This will start the flow so that the very first stroke can start moving fluid through the system.

    Also, I generally will go through the process twice. In most cases the second time through will not produce air, and only requires one or two strokes,but it gives certainty and peace of mind.

    When the bleeding process is completed, have the pedal man apply very firm pressure to the pedal while you check for leaks and clean up fluid. The pedal man can also check to make sure that pressure is maintained in the system and that the pedal is firm and high, and does not sink. If it does, there is a leak or a master cylinder internal problem.

    Once you master this system, try "anticipated preaction". Call out the "DOWN" instruction just an instant before actually opening the bleeder. This will prevent any inflow of air before the pressure begins to eject fluid. Likewise, try to start closing the bleeder just before the downstroke is completed. This also will prevent the inflow of air. It is especially helpfull once you've determined that you are just about finished with a given cylinder or caliper.

    I know that a number of people reading this will have their own procedures and disagreements with mine. I have tried every procedure that I've ever heard of, and while this is the messiest one it is also the surest way to end up with an air free system. You must understand that when doing this job at home with an only partially proficient or interested assistant, it is vitally important to make the process as efficient and painless as possible in order to preserve peace and harmony. Be patient and understanding, and explain the need for the order of things. Otherwise I guarantee a fight. Also, the person doing the pedal can NEVER be the commander. T'won't work.

    Yes, when you are working alone there are other methods. I've done the tube in a jar thing so many times I can do it while asleep. And yes, a vacuum or pressure bleeder will work well, though vacuum bleeders leave something to be desired and I've always had to finish up with an assistant to be sure of the result. The low pressure bleeder is a great piece of equipment, but a really good one is quite expensive. It's what we use in the shop because it saves man hours. But believe me, you can do every bit as good a job with the method described above. Just be prepared for the mess. Get plenty of rags and a couple of cans of brake cleaner in the pressure can. I'm sorry for the long post, but this isn't an easy thing to describe without actually demonstrating it visually. Give it a shot. It's all about communication. Good luck.


    Motorbill
    From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon
  •  02-27-2007, 4:27 PM 4815 in reply to 4804

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    Thanks for the reply, Bill.

    I've gone back through and bled the system as you described and, although I'm not getting any air at all, the pedal still feels somewhat too soft to suit me.  It goes down about half way and is just ... soft.  The brakes stop the car fine, but they just don't give me that confidence that I would like.  Any ideas?

    Zach

  •  02-27-2007, 5:21 PM 4816 in reply to 4815

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    Motorbill, I'm fixin to call my wife over to the computer to read that. "Commander Ken" Thanks!!Devil
  •  02-27-2007, 7:23 PM 4819 in reply to 4815

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    Zach,

    Can I assume that your flex hoses are relatively new, or in good condition? It's not terribly common, but I have actually seen hoses so fatigued that they will swell when pressurized. It is a fact of late MGB life that the pedal,even on a good system, is not as firm as that on the earlier cars. Between thee and me, I never saw anything wrong with the system before they put the servo on it. The pedal feel since has not been so great.

    To test the system try this. With the engine off, pump the brake pedal slowly eight or ten times. Now rest for about ten seconds. Step down on the pedal firmly. It should be fairly hard, without a bouncy or spongy feel or quality. Now, while keeping your foot firmly planted on the brake, start the engine. The brake pedal should sink as soon as the engine is idling well enough to provide vacuum to the servo. It will probably also feel less rock hard, and in fact, even a bit mushy. That's a servo assisted MGB. If your car needs to have some throttle pedal to start, use your left foot on the brake. It may be instructive to try this procedure with the handbrake both off and set and contrast the differences, if any. After all this, it may help to readjust the rear brakes too. Sometimes they have to rock back and forth and bed in to find a nice firm operating position.

    Check out this stuff and repost. We will get things right.


    Motorbill
    From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon
  •  03-01-2007, 4:50 PM 4866 in reply to 4819

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    Motorbill,

    Thanks for the reply.  First things, first.  When I replaced the master cylinder, I replaced both front brake hoses and the rear.  No leaks, no air when I bled the brakes.  Went ahead and readjusted the rear brakes as you suggested.  The wheels turned freely and so I adjusted them up tight and backed off to the first detent/notch/flat/whatever.  Tried the test you outlined in your email and the pedal did go down a little.  When I test drove it, the pedal seemed to go down about half way to the floor and was a bit mushy although she stopped okay.  It seemed as though the right front locked up while the left didn't, but then the road was wet so I couldn't be sure.  Any thoughts?

    Zach

  •  03-01-2007, 7:25 PM 4871 in reply to 4804

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

     motorbill, i gotta say that was one of the funniest posts i ever read. how true that is when you have to work with someone while bleeding the brakes. I gotta remember that "commander" stuff, even tho now i cheat, because i was a second from going to marriage counseling over a simple brake job. LOL
  •  03-01-2007, 9:10 PM 4872 in reply to 4866

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    Zach,

    Wait for a dry road and try again. You REALLY shouldn't have uneven front braking in a hydraulic disc brake system unless you've got caliper or suspension peoblems. When you first tried the brakes (before the last bleeding) did they pull to the right?

    One more bleeding pointer. It is an unfortunate fact of automotive design that hydraulic hard lines must follow a circuitous route along the chassis to get to the appliance which they servre. In this path they may also go uphill and downhill. Sometimes air will become trapped in a high spot, and while pumping fluid through that spot, it is actually possible to push fluid PAST the air unless you are using enough velocity to shove the bubble "down the hill" toward its goal. That's why I stress that the downward stroke of the pedal needs to be firm. Sometimes, even this is not enough. That's when I employ the dreaded "Stomp Manuever". Open the bleeder at least half a turn and have the pedal man tromp on the brake pedal like they've just noticed they are about to drive into Godzilla's mouth. Make sure to get the bleeder closed quickly, or all is lost. Repeat this several times per wheel. If there's any air in there, it will come out. If the pedal remains lousy,you have other problems, or your calipers are on upside down, as we recently discovered with another poster, with the bleeders on the bottom. That, of course, will trap air for sure!

    Frankly, I don't think this is your problem. But in certain instances the technique has worked for me, and I thought I'd share it for what it's worth.

     Finally, I don't know if I've asked before; When the engine is off, and you've pumped the pedal a number of times to relax the servo, then rested the brake and pushed down firmly, is the pedal still mushy? If it's not, then air is not your problem. Let me know. Persistence will out.


    Motorbill
    From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon
  •  03-04-2007, 1:54 PM 4917 in reply to 4872

    Re: Leaking Master Cylinder?

    Motorbill,

    This has been a pretty busy weekend with my daughter's Special Olympics Cheerleading Competition, and all.  But I did get an opportunity to re-try the pedal pressure check.  With pressure on the pedal, I started the engine and at idle, the pedal dropped about an inch, but remained firm.  When I backed out of the garage and down the driveway, the pedal remained pretty firm. Then I drove down the street and the pedal got softer, but still was probably half way from the floor.  This is softer than it was when I bought the car and I suppose that is why it bothers me.  When I get it up to about 25 mph and hit the brakes, the car stops straight without pulling to one side or the other.  I do want to try bleeding it one more time and will try the "stomp maneuver".  I'll let you know what the outcome is.

    Zach

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