Moss Motors, Ltd

Hello,

I'm new here and I have red already the topics in this forum related to transmissionproblems.

However, I would like to ask if anybody would have a clue what could be wrong with my transmission???

I bought the car just last summer and had it out just once without any problems. To get it certified here in Germany I had to install 4-ways and new lights plus a new brakecylinder. After I had everything done I wanted to go and get the brakes checked, when I tried to back out of the garage onto the street I putt the reverse in but the gear totally blocked. After pushing the car out I engaged the first gear and it did the same....it blocked. 2nd gear running absolutely fine and smooth and so did the 3rd and 4th. So I drove to the shop in the upper gears without a problem. Brakes got checked out with good results. The mechanic suggested that I should not drive the car until the gearbox had been refurbished. Not that I want to trash the guy, but he even admitted himself that he has no clue about British cars. So I found a shop that can do it but it would cost me without parts about $1500 to $2000 US (converted from 1000 to 1500 Euros). This is if I take the tranny out and bring it to the guy. So I started to take all the interior out (incl. floorboards) and am now ready to lift the gearbox out. Just so you know, I'm still in touch with the previous owner who had the car extensivly restored 3 years ago, including a checkup of the gears. He told me that a specialist was looking that time at the transmission and was authorized to do whatever needed to be done to make sure it works. So even with the prospect of making some money with it the mechanic sayed it would be fine. Now some can argue that this is the story I'm getting told, but I'm absolutly positive that this is the truth. The previous owner is a very decent man and he is still in love with the car even though he sold it to me.

So ....long story short.....before I carry my tranny to the shop, I thought about asking if anyone would know if this could be only a linkage problem (shifter) or something like that. I just ordered the shopmanual for the TD since I have nothing but the Moss-catalog.

Oh sorry.....I'm talking about a 1952 MG/TD.....bought in Oklahoma City and now in Southern Germany.

Greetings,

Marc

Welcome to the forum mfb66..are you related to mb66?

To your question...wait a bit until others respond here before removing your transmission. I have no experience with your '52TD, but I DO know that 1st gear and reverse in many of these cars were not synchronized, so sliding into these gears was a matter of hit or miss.

The way to get them in gear if blocked is to simply let the clutch up for a second and then try again. If you do that, and can then get into gear, you might not have a problem at all!

See what others say...

Good luck...

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

Thanx for the fast response...

No...I don't know who mb66 is. My mfb stands for my initials and 66 ... well beyond running after 20 year olds..lol..

I might have been not totally clear in my previous posting....but I can get the gears in...they just won't engage.....its like the tranny is jammed in 1st and reverse....???!!!

mb66 is motorbill66. You'll hear from him eventually!

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

Wish I could go drive my TD around southern Germany!  I'm envious, to say the least.

If you have no prior experience with post WWII British transmissions, the "T"-series gearboxes give new meaning to primitive.  To save money, the Brits did not install a synchro cone on the first/reverse gear assembly, so ensure you're at a complete stop and double-clutch before shifting - gently. Patience helps, too.   It's hard to get it into gear without a loud "Grunch!" no matter how careful you are.  Again to save money, both first/reverse use "straight-cut" gears, which are noisy and very prone to damaged/worn teeth.  Once the gearbox is out of the car, and the top cover removed, you can observe the first/reverse gears in action as you move the shifter.  It really does make sense once you watch it all happen.  There are few if any linkage or internal adjustments that can be made, so if there's excessive play due to old age and wear, you need to replace parts.  Expensive parts.

As the repair estimates add up, consider replacing the entire transmission with the 5-speed conversion transmission.  The improvement in the drivability of the TD is wonderful.  Plus, you will never have transmission troubles again, since the doner gearbox comes from a much heavier and more powerful car.  Unless you crawl under the car, the car looks the same.

mfb66,

Welcome to the forum. You will find plenty of friendly and helpful folks here. In my forty years as a Britcar mechanic I have, as you can imagine, overhauled/repaired more than a couple of T Series gearboxes. Diagnosing a problem such as your from afar is not always easy, as a lack of visual inspection, plus those things lost in translation (simply the different terms we all use to describe a given thing) can make for a lot of inaccuracy and wasted time. However, having read those posts which have gone before, I have a hunch or two. Let me offer these suggestions for proceeding:

It seems from your description of what's going on that the shift lever is actually going fully into position for first or reverse. If this is true, then the components which move the actual gears are failing to do their job, or the layshaft gear involved is entirely stripped of teeth (I have seen this happen). There are a number of ways in which this might happen, such as the front selector coming loose on the remote control shaft in such a way that it will allow the relatively low force operation needed for the upper gears to happen, but will slide on the selector shaft when you try to move it over to the first and reverse positions. Is this a long shot? Yes it is, but most everything that happens to these ancient boxes is a long shot. I've seen things that would curl your teeth going on in them. I could speculate on and on, but that's a waste. You need to explain VERY clearly to me what happens when you try to shift, and what noises, if any, result. Does the shift lever indeed travel ALL the distance it should for each of these gears? Does it feel normal? What sound does it make when you let out the clutch?

I think you will wind up removing the top cover to see what's going (or not going) on. If you do, be extremely careful not to drop the detent springs and balls into the works. They can be the devil to get back out.

Please get back to me with exhaustive detail about everything you have experienced with this problem. Sights, sounds, smells, and all. We don't have a picture, so a thousand words will have to do. Take heart. We may be able to solve this problem simply and inexpensively. If not, the least we will be able to do is to make you a wiser consumer of services. Good luck, and welcome again.

 

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Well....Oregon is not that bad either, don't you think...

Thank you for the answer...Brought back some hope....

I will take the gearbox out and take a look at it this weekend. I studied the gearbox diagram in the Moss catalog and slowly the gazillion parts come together in my head. The 5 speed tranny sounds really sweet but I'm not sure if its available in Europe since its not in the catalog. I have both catalogs, the US-edition (where the tranny is in) and the UK-edition (no tranny). I compared the prices in the catalog and found out that you guys have to pay quiet some more cash for the parts on your side than we do over here. Must be the logistic, I guess. For example: 1st gear in Europe 139,50 (british pounds = $ 201.18 ), 1st gear on your side of the ocean: a whooping $ 439,95. So don't feel too sorry for me.

The key is if I can do the 'maybe' repair on my own. I sure hope so....this way I'll still end up with a fraction of what the shop charges me (since parts were not included in the quote).

Hello motorbill !

Stupid me....I checked for my posting and forgot to refresh the screen....so I didn't see your posting and answered the previous first.

I'm so glad that I came on board with this problem before taking further steps. As I mentioned in my previous reply, I will take the tranny out tomorrow and carefully inspect it. Just so much in advance..(I tried to explain this before). The gears do get in ..... they are engaged ... then if you release the clutch slowly the whole car buckles. Nothing moves forward though. If I would release the clutch all the way...certainly something would break. Same in reverse....Its almost like first and reverse are getting engaged at the same time???!!! Or something else is loose in there and blocking those gears, wereas the first must be OK since its on the same shaft as 2nd,3rd and 4th (so I understand). I can drive the car without any problems, noises or smells in 2nd,3rd and 4th. I mentioned I had taken out the floorboard already....so its kind of hard to test it in action again. Best is probably to go ahead and open the lid and peak inside. I will keep you posted on this....

Thank you all again...

It certainly does sound like it's going into two gears at once. You are SO RIGHT not to try to let the clutch out all the way! I'll lay at least even odds that the reverse idler gear has come free and is staying permanently engaged. Go for it, man. Just be careful of all the little bits that'd like to jump into the works as you remove that cover! Keep us posted.

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Here I am again with my riddle...

Didn't find the time to take the box out of the car. Did some diagnostics though. I woke her up from hybernaition and got her running again. Sweet sound :-)  So since the floorboards are out, I sat on the frame and put her in gear. Turns out that while going forward in 1st gear (yes it was possible) there is this strange clicking sound every turn of the driveshaft. Now the reverse has some real strange behaviour. Once engaged, and the clutch slowly released the car comes into motion....for one turn of the shaft....then it blocks. I took the gear out and engaged it right away again.....it moves again for one shaft-turn....I guess some could still move the car this way backward if he brings a lot of pations with. So there is definitely something blocking inside....just weird that it does it after one turn...I did this check together with my brother who is an absolute Porsche911-nut. So he's got some technical nowhow on his line of car but nevertheless agrees with me that it must be the reverse only thats acting up. So I made room in my shop and prepared everything for the surgery....after all I'd like to get her out by may.

P.S. Found out that the 5-speed IS available in Europe....for some reason I didn't find it in the catalog (stupid me) . It costs around 1600.- Euros here.  If I can't fix it on my own, I will get the 5-speed.

Another P.S..... Motorbill66....Due to respect I tried to change my sign-in name.....since my name is Marc Frederik Binder and I'm born in 66 I chose this. Now I would like to change it...if I would just know how....I hope you don't mind leaving it instead....it wasn't intentionally, really....

mfb66,

I'm beginning to suspect that you've got one or more broken teeth on the laygear and/or the reverse idler. This wilol call for a complete overhaul in the end. (no pun intended) Prices of the parts that you can find are quite high. The five speed may be a viable option.

Concerning the name, no worries, my friend. The worst thing is that you made me feel just a tad older!

The background on my "handle" is that Motorbill is a combination of the name of my business (The Motorway, Ltd.) and my first name (obviously, Bill). The 66 is the year I GRADUATED! Well at least that was only from high school. It was also the preferred number of my revered and all time favorite racing driver, Mark Donohue. I admired his engineering approach to race driving, and by complete coincidence, both he and I, it turned out, were mentored early iin our careers by one great guy, Lew Schultz.

Mark and I both grew up in Northern New Jersey. Of course, he went on to far greater accomplishment and fame, but alas and tragically, a much shorter life. Still, for me those were wonderful and thrilling days, especially in 1976 when Mr. Donohue, Dick Barbour, Sam Posey, and a host of other accomplished drivers from the Road Racing Drivers Club conducted a clinic at Lime Rock Park racecource in Connecticut for hopefuls like myself, and I finally got to meet him and recieve advice on technique. Oh.. gee, I'm rambling. They said this would start to happen after sixty was reached!  But so soon after?

Thanks for your endurance.

Bill Wardlow

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Got the box out finally and started to dismantel it. The selectorshafts are removed and by observing the gears from the top there is nothing wrong with it. That refers to the upper layshaft and the reverse gear. The clustergear (I believe thats what you call the laygear) is not visible like that since its hidden underneath. Obviously one of the first gear teeth has broken off since I found one in the drained oil. (Of course this being the most expensive part inside this maze). It costs over here 570 British Pound that is somewhere about 650 Euros. Still cheaper than the1700.- for the other box.

So I'm definately overhauling the old one. It looks like it hasn't been touched for ages, according to the oil and grease inside. So hopefully I get this done without major difficulties. I purchased the DVD from Moss containing all the shop manuals for the TD. Its a guideline but thats about it. Even though my English skills are alright (I think so at least), it is quiet difficult for me to understand some of the technical terms.

According to this manual I'm suppose to get a brass punch and loosen the clustergear first before I remove the upper laygear. Maybe I misinterpreted that....could you advice me what to do next?

As I said...I got the main box in front of me with the selectors out. The mainshaft sticking out on the back and the first motion shaft on the front. As far as my logic tells me, I need to remove the nut on the first motion shaft next but I kind of don't understand how to proceed from there. 

m6,

After removing the bell housing, the top cover, and the rear extension, you need to loosen and remove the upward facing  bolt near the rear end of the main gearbox in the bottom of the housing. This bolt holds the layshaft itself in place. DON'T try to do anything until this bolt has been removed! The brass drift is to drive the layshaft forward and out of the laygear and gear housing, thus permitting the gear to "lay" in the bottom of the box. This must be done to clear for the other components you are trying to remove .

We have a variation on this. We have taken an old layshaft and shortened it so that it will go entirely into the laygear, but won't extend beyond it into the housing. This is also invaluable for reinstalling the shaft with all the needle rollers held in place. Once all is in alignment, the "real" shaft is inserted, pushing the dummy out without loosing the needle rollers.

 

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

"DON'T try to do anything until this bolt has been removed!"

Bill, I wish you had been around to tell me that when I first tried to disassemble the gearbox in our TD some 35 years ago.  I don't know how long I beat on that shaft , trying to get it out until I finally noticed that grub screw extending from the bottom of the gearbox - most embarrassing, I'm just glad that there was no one around at the time to witness it.  That was my first foray into auto mechanics, but with a TD in the stable and no money to have someone else do the work, not the last.  That gearbox has been operating without a single hiccup ever since.

 

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Cheers,
Dave
http://homepages.donobi.net/sufuelpumps/

Dave,

We have all had THAT moment!! My first in-depth foray into transmissions was a Series III Land Rover. I had gotten a job at a dealership. This Landy was pulled in on a hook and I was told I would be the one to remove the gearbox and repair same under warranty..

I don't know if you've ever "experienced" a Land Rover gearbox from the late sixties/ early seventies, but it's about three times the size of the ones you and I tend to work on. The added pressure of it's being a warranty repair on a new vehicle didn't help, I'll tell you. But the kicker was that NOBODY ELSE in the place had a clue about the thing! THAT is when I learned to read the manual like a lawyer.. Not only was I on my own, but this transmission was such a wreck as to need a new case, and had broken lots of stuff, including the mainshaft. (I still have a stub of this part I use as a hammer) Three solid days and a couple of nights later, I knew how gearboxes in general worked and why Land Rover boxes in particular are "exceptional". The hard lessons learned there and in many other "trials by fire" are what have landed me where I am today, wherever the heck that is.

Oh, and you would be far from the first to murder one of those grub screws in a T Series transmission, my friend.

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon