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Whole lotta shaking going on

Last post 05-28-2008, 8:25 AM by HealeyMarv. 27 replies.
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  •  04-11-2007, 12:36 PM 6120 in reply to 6113

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    Great information folks.  Thank you very much.  I should have the car on a lift by tomorrow or Friday.

    http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/jculpjr/goldenbeigemetallicrunningreduced.jpg
  •  04-14-2007, 10:46 AM 6199 in reply to 6120

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    Heale Jim-

    Tell us what you found out!

    LCJUTILA 

  •  04-16-2007, 5:40 AM 6235 in reply to 6199

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    Nothing yet.  My mechanic left town on vacation, and I wanted him to work on the car personally, not his other guys.  I drove the car about 80 miles this weekend to go down to the "Legends on the Green" Concours at the World Golf Village, and the car still shakes, but it doesn't seem as bad as when I first got the car.  At an indicated 80 mph, there is no problem at all- the car feels great, but that 50- 75 area is still rough.

     I met a Healey restorer at the show who insisted that it's a wheel balance issue.  He recommended just buying new wheels and not screwing around with adjusting the existing ones.  He also recommended a 72 spoke wheel for spirited driving.

     
    I still intend to get the car on a lift with the wheels off- I'll let you know what happens when I get it done.
     


    http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/jculpjr/goldenbeigemetallicrunningreduced.jpg
  •  05-02-2007, 10:45 AM 6533 in reply to 6235

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    Like I mentioned previously, my 62 BT7 had the same problem.  The Steering wheel and front end would start shaking about 50mph and get worse at about 60 mph and disappear above 70 mph.  What was causing the shaking was the left front wheel bouncing up and down at the natural frequency of the front suspension - due to a totally ineffective front shock.

    The other people are correct in saying that wheel imbalance would cause the car to shake, but this should only build as the car increases speed.  Same with an imbalanced driveshaft - the shake should be proportional to vehicle speed.  When you say the shaking stops above a certain speed, I would tend to forget about the imbalance of tires or driveshafts.

     In engineering school I learned that every mechanism has a natural frequency.  A good example is the pendilum on a clock.  They are usually designed to swing back and forth once per second.  You can try to get it to go faster or slower, but it always comes back to once per second.

    Same idea on the suspension of a car.  Without damping (the purpose of shocks)  the suspension would go up and down continuously after a bump.  The healy front suspension natural frequency seems to be about 60mph.  At this speed the wheel goes up and down like a clock pendilum goes back and forth.  Slower or faster speeds cause to road bumps to occur farther away from the suspension natural frequency and the shaking disappears.

    A couple of things I would suggest that won't cost you anything:

    1.  Have someone drive along side you at a speed where the shaking is the worst (60mph?)  They should be able to see if a tire is bouncing up and down. If it is bouncing, the shock for that tire is bad.

    2.  Back in the garage, pull of a front wheel and look visually at each of the shocks.  When my shocks leaked out their oil (and lost their ability to do their job)  there was a significant amount of dirt cemented onto the surrounding area that had to be chipped away.

     -John

  •  05-02-2007, 11:50 AM 6538 in reply to 6533

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    John,

     

    Thanks- interesting information and good idea.  I'm going to check this immediately.  I'm sure the shocks are original/unrebuilt.


    http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/jculpjr/goldenbeigemetallicrunningreduced.jpg
  •  05-03-2007, 3:33 PM 6568 in reply to 6533

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    Shocks are important, but DO NOT forget about imbalance if the oscilations "go away" above a certain speed. Yes, it's true that movable mechanisms have  a natural frequency of oscillation, but I can assure you that unless there is some stimulus there will not be any oscillation. Frequency is not measured in miles per hour, it is measured in cycles per second,or some other time measurement, and amplitude or distance of travel.We are examining two separate issues here, and it is their sympathetic synchronization which gives rise to the effect.

    If you put a wheel/tire assembly on a rotational balancer, it's own frequency will have nothing to do with the way its imbalance is detected. It is allowed to float in one plane, just as on the car, to detect how the centrifugal effect of its out of balance condition is affecting it through an imposed frequency in the machine.. If you now place it back on the vehicle, and it is perfectly balanced and perfectly round, and you drive it on a perfectly flat surface (bear with me here), there will be NO oscillation, good shock or NO SHOCK at all. There must be some stimulus, or input of energy,to begin the oscillation. Rotation alone will not provide that energy. In fact, you don't need any speed whatsoever to demenstrate the frequency of your suspension system.

    Just remove all the fluid from your lever shock, or in the case of tube shocks, remove the shock altogether. Now, simply jounce the car up and down to begin the oscilations. If you have sensitive enough timing equipment you'll find that every up and down cycle takes precisely the same time, what ever the distance vertically traveled (the amplitude). You'll also see that the motion eventually does indeed stop. Without continued stimulus, or input of energy, the friction in the system, its friction against the air it must displace, and the effects of gravity itself will bring it to a halt in due time. Back to the tires./natural frequency thing.

    The rotating mass that is the tire/wheel assembly must reach a critical rotational speed before its imbalance is sufficient to evercome the damping characteristics of the rest of the system, including the shocks, the bushings, and even the spring itself. True, a bad shock makes this easier, but until the rotational speed of the wheel reaches a point where its RPM coincides with the operational frequency of the suspension components, you'll experience no vibration. Once it does, Voila! you have the characteristic of an out of balance condition and you can feel it through the steering wheel. The average speed at which this happens for a wide variety of tire/wheel/suspension systems, because of the similarities of their designs, ranges from 52 to 60 MPH. But wait, there's more.

    As you accellerate through this speed, and the rotational velocity of the tire/wheel assembly becomes significantly greater, it no longer is in sympathy with the natural frequency of the unsprung components of the suspension. Therefore, its influence diminishes. At some point it will even more or less perfectly oppose that frequency and reachieve a dynamic balance. Theoretically, if you double the speed at which the effect was first encountered it would return with a true vengence. I wouldn't advise it.

    Of course, no matter how stiff the shocks are, if the out of balance weight is great enough, you will feel it. With a healthy shock the slight imbalance which virtually ALL our tire/wheel assemblies have is simply not noticed. Given a worn shock and a badly out of balance tire/wheel, you'll notice it big time. But, you must reach a critical speed for the mass which is out of balance to have sufficient influence upon the system.

    So yes, you must have good shocks, but don't let that mask an out of balance condition, or that will wear out the new or rebuilt shocks much more quickly. It all has to work together. Remember. Shocks only do one thing. That is to damp oscillations. This they do by converting the energy which would continue those oscillations into heat, which is given off through the shock fluid and body. Energy doesn't get "absorbed". It can only be converted. Out of balance tires and wheels will cause the shock to work overtime and to heat up much more, causing it to eventually ruin its seals.

    The driveshaft is another matter. It's speed is far greater, its diameter is far less, and the natural frequency of its support system is far higher. Even it, however, will tend to go in and out of phase. It just happens at a far greater rate, and the amplitude would continue to rise until something awful happened. I hope this all makes sense and assists you in maintaining your Healey. Cheers 


    Motorbill
    From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon
  •  05-16-2007, 6:39 AM 6935 in reply to 6568

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    I'm still planning on going through the cars suspension thoroughly, but my other project is really taking up my time.  I've driven the car a few times in the past couple of weeks and each time I drive it, it gets better and better.  The vibration seems to be going away.  It's still there a little, but no where near as severe as it was when I first got the car running.

     Anyway,  I'll post an update as soon as I have something to report.
     


    http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/jculpjr/goldenbeigemetallicrunningreduced.jpg
  •  05-16-2007, 7:54 AM 6937 in reply to 6935

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    Jim,

    It's strange that the problem is diminishing by itself. It flies in the face of everything I've experienced about problems in general! How old are your tires? And, how long had the car been sitting before the problem started? I wonder if the tires took a "set" somehow from sitting in one position. If so, they may not be so viable anymore. This is just speculation of course. Let us know.


    Motorbill
    From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon
  •  05-17-2007, 8:41 AM 6965 in reply to 6937

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    The tires are newer Kumho's that probably sat for 2-3 years before I bought the car.  They seem to have very few miles on them- hardly any wear.  I'm sure they were flat spotted.  I was trying to think if I could just be getting used to the shaking, but the passenger side glass was making a noticable banging noise before in the speed range we discussed, and now it doesn't.

    http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/jculpjr/goldenbeigemetallicrunningreduced.jpg
  •  05-17-2007, 9:38 AM 6968 in reply to 6965

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    Heale Jim and Motorbilll et al-

    I wonder if its possible that the wire wheels/spokes took a "set" from sitting? Anyone heard of this happening?

    LCJUTILA 

  •  05-06-2008, 6:28 AM 14267 in reply to 6968

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    Well it has been a while since I've checked in here and I think I've tracked down at least part of the reason for my chassis shake.  My restoration has begun and I have the car down to bare metal now.  The drivers side outrigger is gone.  It had to be cut out.  I have assorted other damage on the frame which I understand is fairly typical for these cars.

     

    Motorbill- I'm beginning to see why you stated extreme caution with jacking these cars on the side- thanks for the quality information!

     You should all be aware that your unrestored cars *could* have this type of chassis damage.  Until you sandblast or visually inspect, there is no way of knowing.  If you plan on autocrossing or doing heavy road driving- make sure your chassis can handle it.  There is an outside chance that my frame could have cracked in half in the right circumstances, leaving me with a totaled car.  CHECK YOUR CHASSIS!



    http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/jculpjr/goldenbeigemetallicrunningreduced.jpg
  •  05-06-2008, 6:36 AM 14268 in reply to 14267

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    The photos:

    I'm having difficulty with the photos- they won't post in the right dimension.

     

    Here's a link to the photos.  I guess you have to cut and paste the link as the board does not seem to be recognizing hyperlinks:

     

    http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/jculpjr/Healey%20chassis/

     


    http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/jculpjr/goldenbeigemetallicrunningreduced.jpg
  •  05-28-2008, 8:25 AM 14625 in reply to 14268

    Re: Whole lotta shaking going on

    I'm kind of late to this discussion but I don't think anyone has mentioned the Healey malady commonly referred to as the "Dreaded Scuttle Shake". The scuttle apparently has a natural frequency that comes into play at about 55 MPH and is usually caused by an imbalance in the wheel/tire(tyre)/brake assembly. It feels front end related and sometimes it is, but it shakes the steering wheel so a rear imbalance can feel like a front end problem. I mention this because the brake drums on the big Healeys are a frequent and overlooked problem. On my BT7 each rear drum took a lot of weight to balance but the problem went away (even with bone dry shocks but that's a different story).

    On-the-car balancing will compensate but, as someone else mentioned, the wheel must go on in exactly the same position every time and the spare isn't balanced.

    I should also mention that "real" scuttle shake can come from a number of other causes and mods are available that will stiffen the scuttle (that's good) but in this case. treat the symptom, not the disease. 

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