Moss Motors, Ltd

Joel, here's another wild guess. Did you paint the starter to make it pretty while it was out? If so then you may not have proper contact between it and the engine which is itsground. I'm not familiar with your car but the discussions sound like the solenoid is mounted on the starter. If so then paint between them could also be the problem. If it is on the firewall then it needs a separate ground, possibly a good bare spot behind it on the firewall.

I think I lost track somewhere above but I believe you said the relay definately clicks but the solenoid does not. If that's the case then we need to get the solenoid working first. Since you said it does get voltagewhen trying to start and it also test good on the bench then it almost has to be the ground. You could go back to that black jumper cable but this time between the battery negative cable and the solenoid case. Do not touch it to any of the electrical connections. try to start and see it the solenoid engages. If so then it definately is the ground. Remember, these ground connections are every bit as important as the hot ones as they carry exactly the same current. The problem is that many of them are shared by multiple devices and they are often not readily visible or obvious.

 

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Bayless
Never express yourself more clearly than you can think
'48 Prefect
'67 Sprite (project)

this is a very wierd problem.  I though for sure that it is the ground connection...I still think so.  But, it is getting wierder for me.  I can use the jumper cables on both my MG battery and on my truck battery and the starter/solenoid will work on the bench...however, once the starter is installed on the car, i get nothing.  All i get is a good spark at the terminal when I touch the positive cable to it.  I have the ground on the bolt which hold the solenoid to the starter(the one on the side, not the one which establishes an electrical conection) so the starter and the solenoid should both be directly grounded.  When I bench tested it, I even triied to connect the ground to the car body instead of the battery teminal and it worked off the mg that way too.  But it does not seem to do anything when it is installed in the car.  

btw, enfoprefect, my solenoid is mounted to the starter and is installed to the engine at the rear engine plate by the gearbox. oh and I did not pait anything before putting the engine back into the car.  I did however use "neversieze" on alot of the bolts when reinstalling things...Do you think that this could be causing bad electrical connections for the ground?  I never would have thought of it as being a problem, but I am at my wits end.

 

joel

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1976 MGB with a 1977 engine

Well at least you know the starter is working, on the bench that is.

In these situations it is best to take a fresh start, a reboot.

All power starts at the battery. Remove the battery and test it.
Will the battery in the MG start your truck?

Before placing the battery back in MG, clean the battery terminal clamps. Auto parts stores carry a cone shaped wire brush for this purpose, it works great.

Remove the battery grounding cable at the body, use a wire brush to clean the area where the bolt and battery cable eyelet contacts the car body. Reconnect grounding cable.

Reconnect the battery.

Now move on to the grounding strap under the car. Remove it and clean all contact points. Reconnect grounding strap.

Now try to start it and report back.

Let's go back a bit. I recall you said you can measure 12 volts at the solenoid small terminal when trying to start. Is that right? If so then we know that everything to that point is probably working right. You also said that the solenoid engages when bench testing so it is probably all right too. But you also said you even tried connecting the ground to the car body when bench testing. I don't understand that. A bench test usually means you have the thing completely off the car and not connected to it in any way. Lastly, you said you get a big spark when touching the hot lead to the terminal. Which terminal is that? Have you tried connecting the jumper cable between the negative battery post and the solenoid body as I suggested?

Since the solenoid seems to be good and you get voltage at the small terminal when trying to start, then the most likely problem is certainly a missing or inadequate ground. There is also a smaller possibility of a bad or weak connection in the hot side of the circuit. You can check that easily with your volt meter. measure between the solenoid small terminal and the battery negative post while trying to start. If the voltage stays near 12 volts then the hot side is good. If it drops significantly then it is suspect. The easiest test right now is the jumper to the solenoid case though.

 

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Bayless
Never express yourself more clearly than you can think
'48 Prefect
'67 Sprite (project)

i don'T BELIEVE THAT i CHECKED THE VOLTAGE AT THE SOLENOID...I did check it at the battery itself though.  I will check the voltage at the solenoid and get back to you on that though.  You don't understand the bench testing that I am doing, so here it is:

    using my jumper cables, I hook the red and black on one end to the battery; on the other end, the black needs to be hooked to the solenoid/starter,  I then touch the red to the small terminal on the solenoid( the terminal that the white/brown wire from the relay would hook to) and the starter/solenoid engages.  However,  When I said I connected the ground to the car body, I meant that I took the black jumper cable that would have been attached to the negative battery terminal and attached it to the car instead to get my ground.  I figured that if I could get my ground off of the car than that would mean that the car has a good ground on it.  

The spark I get is when I touch the possitive wire to the solenoid terminal that the white/brown wire would attach to from the relay.  however, this spark is sometimes big and sometimes small.  even when using a screwdriver to hotwire the solenioid by connecting the hot lead to the terminal on the solenoid, the spark varies in size, though, I always get a spark.

I have attached the jumper cable to the solenoid body and the negative battery terminal to establish a direct ground, just as I would If i were bench testing it.  However, When it is attached to the engine, It doesn't seem to help.  It works on the bench, but not on the engine.  that's why this problem seems so wierd.

I will try your voltmeter tests and get back to you again.  

thanks,

joel

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1976 MGB with a 1977 engine

mgb 76,

I did your tests,  I removed the battery,  and even though it is a much smaller battery that the one in my truck,  after a couple tries, it did start my truck up.  so, the battery must be good.  I cleaned the terminals, took the ground wire off the car and cleaned it and the area it was bolted to.  reinstalled the battery, took the ground strap off and cleaned it up as well as where it gets attached to,  cleaned up the possitive battery cable end where it attaches to the solenoid and reconnected it there.  tried to hotwire the starter/solenoid...just a spark.  I did not reconnect the other 3 possitive connections that come off of the solenoid( the other brown wires)  that way I was just working with the starter/solenoid and didn't have to worry about anything else making noises.  

I am begining to think that we are focusing on the wrong thing here.  I am going to take my battery up to auto zone tomorow and have it checked, though, I still think it is good.  Just want to rule it out once and for all.  But, if it isn't the ground and it isn't the battery...what else could it be?  What else could be causing a problem like this?  even grounding the solenoid directly the the negative battery terminal (whether it ti the battery in the MG or in my truck)  it is not helping.  Though, it will work in this way when it is out of the car and on the bench.  The engine is not froze up either, I have turned the bolt on front and the flywheel turns.

thanks,

joel

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1976 MGB with a 1977 engine

I applaud your tenacity. You have tried all the workarounds and problem shooting techniques I know, to no success. I have run of ideas. I will continue to monitor this thread, I know you will triumph.

I am beginning to think that it may be the starter itself.  i was discussing my problems with a friend at work last night(he and his father rebuilt a model-T a few years back)  And he believes that the starter is not working correctly.  

when I hotwire the starter on the bench, the starter gear shoots out and spins rapidy for about 10 seconds or so and then slows way down, lik it is out of juice.  I thought this would be normal since the starter is supposed to disengage once it has the flywheel turning.  But he assured me that as long as I have the possitive lead connected to that terminal, it should keep on spinning real fast, as if i were to hold the key in the start position.  So, being that it is slowing down like this,  I believe that maybe we have indeed been focusing on the wrong problem.  We should be looking at the starter.

Is this something that I can possibly fix on my own?  I had just purchased this starter a couple years back.  Could this maybe be just a brush replacement or adjustment or something?  Any help from someone with knowledge of these starters advice is welcomed and appreciated.  I would rather fix this myself than to buy another starter again.

thanks,

joel

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1976 MGB with a 1977 engine

I have occaissionally seen where corrosion INSIDE the insulation of the heavy positive cable from the battery to the solenoid has caused so much resistance that this symptom would occur. Have hou eliminated this possibility?

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

I think that i have just eliminated all of our grief so far.  I took the starter out of the car again today to bench test it again.  Couldn't get ANYTHING out of it except a weak spark.  I then bench tested the other starter/solenoid again(the one that autozone told me a couple years back was no good and it was working great.  the gear slid over and stayed spinning very fast so long as I kept the hot lead to the terminals.  So I installed this old one back into the car and...It is now turning the engine when I try to start it.  Though, it won't start, I am FINALLY making some progress.  At this piont I am not getting a spark from the coil wire at the distributor.  Test lamp lights up at the positive side of the coil.  the negative side turns on in the run position and dimms in the start position(it should turn on and off, right?)  So, I will continue my tests and keep all of you updated on my progress and also  watch for your continued support.  thank you all for your help so far.  I am not ruling out the possibiliyt of still having starter problems again in the furure either.  just last week, this starter was not working properly on the bench either.  cross your fingers for me.

 

joel

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1976 MGB with a 1977 engine

starter is still working good so far.  (have to look at the newer one with the new solenoid still, but there will be time for that later)  found a loose wire AGAIN at the 3 wire plug for the distibutor.  soldered it this time so I shouldn't have issues with it again.  So, the engine is turning now, it is fireing.  I have accually had it running a couple times today.  playing with the carburator now.  I can't seem to get it to start without raising the piston up while I crank on it.  I keep flooding the carb.  Hopefully I can get this thing adjusted right over the weekend.  It is a zenith-stromberg single carb.  Once I get this carb figured out, i can bleed my clutch and test that out.  Things are looking up.

joel

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1976 MGB with a 1977 engine

Congratulations on your progress. I can't help much on that Z-S carb but it does sound like it is way too rich if you have to lift the piston to get it started. The first thing to check is probably the float adjustment. Too high and it will definately flood. Also, set the mixture adjustment per the manual as a starting point. I don't know on the Z-S but an SU is 12 flats or 2 full turns open from fully closed.

 

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Bayless
Never express yourself more clearly than you can think
'48 Prefect
'67 Sprite (project)

I was able to adjust the carb to get the engine to stay running, had the idle at 1800 rpm as the book suggests to warm up the engine before making the finnal adjustments.  After about 5 minutes, ity stalled out.  Rpms dropped to nothing.  I think it is 1 of 2 posible problems, maybe both together.  

The carb got too hot from the manifold,( I haven't purchased a heat shield yet)  or due to my terible exhaust(which I plan to replace later this summer, i hope) the engine was pulling in more CO than air.  (not enough airflow in the garage)  seems like the CO was worse than was in the past.  Bieng in the garage it just accumilates.

So, I got some insulation from work which holds up to 500degrees F +  to place behind the carb and I am going to place a couple fans in the garage to blow the CO out and see if I can keep the engine running this time.

Oh, and once the engine stalls out, It won't start back up until it cools down.

joel

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1976 MGB with a 1977 engine

If there was enough CO in the garage to kill the engine, it likely would have killed you first. Seriously! Get fresh air in there if you want to live to enjoy your efforts! If you can smell the exhaust, there is probably more CO than you should be inhaling.

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Bayless
Never express yourself more clearly than you can think
'48 Prefect
'67 Sprite (project)

Accually, I don't spend much time in there while it is running.  I walk out.  I don't know if that is the real problem or not, I can accually see the "smoke" coming the from the under the car  through the whole system.  So, it shouldn't even be CO, cuz CO is invisible.  But seriously, I am very careful with that.  I am a firefighter too so I know the hazards of CO piosoning.    I think it is the heat on the carb mostely.  After it stalled out, I just started thinking of things to blame it on...possible causes.  I haqven't gotten back out there yet to work on it anymore, I have been working  12 hours shifts the last couple days.  Thank you for your concern and I will as always be careful.

joel

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1976 MGB with a 1977 engine