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Classic Car Definition

Last post 03-01-2009, 4:56 PM by Ed Holland. 9 replies.
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  •  02-28-2009, 4:53 AM 18215

    Classic Car Definition

    The "classic car dilemma" thread inspired me to give this a thought....

    We really owe it to the world, to come up with the actual definition of what these British toys actually are, what they are supposed to be, what they represent.

    For instance, Your wife would still be your wife if she'd had a lung transplant, but not so perhaps with a brain transplant. (...I know, just go with it...). A brain transplant would change the essence of the lady and although she may look exactly the same, in fact she would be totally different.

    So what is it that defines the essence of these cars? As I recall from reading my history, the defining concept of most of these cars in general, was that they were to be inexpensive sports cars for the common, blue collar man. They were to be relatively inexpensive, and straight-forward to repair for the shade tree mechanic.

    You may have a different view on what makes these cars, "these cars". In the spirit of the prevailing bipartisanship Hmm, perhaps we can discuss this and come up with two things:

    1. Identify the actual essence of theses cars, what makes them what they are.

    2. A "litmus test" question to finally decide if any particular modification changes that essence, and turns a 63 Bugeye into a 2009 homebuilt. 

    Remember, to define the essence is the key. Do that, then the second question is a snap! The essence is not defined by your opinion of these cars, but rather what the designers had in mind.

    Your thoughts...?


    On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

    '68 Sprite 1275
    '76 Midget 1500
  •  02-28-2009, 7:55 AM 18217 in reply to 18215

    Re: Classic Car Definition

    My thoughts? I can't wait to see chopped liver's thoughts on your thoughts. That's my thoughts.
    Motorbill
    From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon
  •  02-28-2009, 8:28 AM 18219 in reply to 18215

    Re: Classic Car Definition

    1.  They leak significant amounts of oil on your garage floor and driveway.

    2.  The leak has stopped.

  •  03-01-2009, 6:22 AM 18233 in reply to 18217

    Re: Classic Car Definition

    Well done Mr. Mason. At least you have displayed the ability to actually think, while motorbill66 is still wallowed in his festering distain for processed meat, or more specifically, processed organ products.

    Where I come from, I see that classic cars are often pampered by thumbed ones whom are realizing that half their shelf life has already expired. The Lower Thorax is mostly a utilitarian region. Work being performed out of necessity, with little joy or revelry. There aren't many self-actualized players in these parts, so my theory is that the classic car is a device by which owners may attain the top level of Maslow's Hierarchy. A little joy is brought into each otherwise insignificant life with every successful clutch bleed, drip-less oil change or 3rd gear chirp on a level road. On a quiet night, if you listen closely you can actually hear things like, "Look honey, new wiper blades!" It's truly sad to see, you poor humans.

    I must admit that while researching on the web, to actually answer this question, I got side-tracked by some images of hot lutefisk and tawdry haggis. So be it.

    Aside from being old, a classic car elicits joy from its maintenance, and its utilization. This joy is the product of allowing the owner to escape thoughts of his/her eventual demise, and bolstered by the knowledge that the owner is keeping history alive. In this, the owner finds a semblance of immortality. A classic car would cease to be a classic car when it no longer provides these things, when the entropy of the universe finally claims its prize.

    If all this seem a bit deep, remember, I'm just a can of ground-up organs! I'm sure you humans can do better (NOT)!


    Don't knock it till you've tried it!
  •  03-01-2009, 6:35 AM 18234 in reply to 18233

    Re: Classic Car Definition

    Dear Chopped Liver,

    Thank you for not insulting me!


    On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

    '68 Sprite 1275
    '76 Midget 1500
  •  03-01-2009, 6:38 AM 18235 in reply to 18234

    Re: Classic Car Definition

    L-I-F-E...Look it up and GET ONE!!!

    Who thinks of these things? You really need to get out more. Do live in your mom's basement or something, and by the way, which is your favorite Star-Trek episode anyway?


    Don't knock it till you've tried it!
  •  03-01-2009, 9:48 AM 18238 in reply to 18235

    Re: Classic Car Definition

    WOW!,

    Full of it is as full of it does...


    Motorbill
    From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon
  •  03-01-2009, 10:41 AM 18239 in reply to 18215

    Re: Classic Car Definition

    Now to take semi-seriously the thoughtfully posed question from davey that started this silliness-fest.

    The first question would seem to ask what about these cars separates them from others in the way we presently experience them, for time is a major context of perception with respect to history and the relevance of critical comparison. It is, in a major way, our personal comparison of one thing to another which informs our preferences, and here we compare technologically developed devices (British cars in this case) from one era to vehicles of all different national origins and at all (mostly SINCE their heyday) stages of history. So, I'm afraid the question simply begs more questions.

    It's like when the doctor asks how you're feeling, and you look him staight in the eye and ask, "Compared to what?"

    I suppose what I'm really trying to state here is that the answer to what makes these cars what they really are depends entirely on your own experience of these cars. When did you first see one? What did you like (or not) about it? How old are you? Have you had a positive or a negative experience with these cars? OK, here's my own personal answer, but it may not, in fact it is surely not, the only answer.

    I think the single thing that most makes these cars "what they are" is that they are not the result of overanalysed stockholder's reports, computer aided body shaping, or styling departments overlorded by bean counters. Now, of course, that isn't entirely the case. In fact, the extreme budgetary strictures placed on the industry required great compromise concerning developement and sophistocation. But in the case of these cars the response was to accept the challenge of the "formula" laid before their designers and do the best they could. The road was never smooth, and certainly there were failures. In fact, in the end, there was no real way to expect an island nation, trading for everything in this modern predatory world eeconomy, to make a stand in this industry. That they lasted as long as they have is miraculous, and is a testament to the determination of the English People. But I wander.

    What makes these cars "what they are", and always has for me, is that each one , during the heyday, was far more the inspired creation of one individual or a small group of individuals led by one man rather than an amalgamation of synthisized and survey driven "product". Here's what that meant:

    The designer incorporated into his creation his very image and vision. All his strengths and all his weaknesses were bravely on view and there for your acceptance or rejection. Art, created by committee, is generally crap. Most will agree with this statement. We like the individual artist to display his very essence in his work, and so it is with these cars from an era when the "Horse designed by cammittee" was starting to take hold in our own land. Here were cars which were still as much art as technology, maybe more so

    This virtual soul of the designer was part and parcel of these cool machines not just in their visage, but in every detail. The immediacy of contact with the road surface felt through their suspension was more than something Detroit could not produce at that time. It was something they couldn't even ACCEPT!  But, grip the wheel of a TR or MG from the sixties, belt yourself in, and hit those turns, and you're feeling what that one inspired designer WANTED you to feel. It was harsh, but it was honest and it was capeable

    Now we have cars that will outperform them by leaps and bounds while carrying two weeks groceries without messing up your hair. That doesn't matter to me. I'm making my perceptive comparrison across TIME. Thes modern chariots are wonderful devices, they just don't inspire the sane feeling of exhillerated adventure, and they require so little from the operator.

    So art changes, but that doesn't make me forget the old masters. In fact, it makes me admire and appreciate them more. Look at all they did with what they had...

    When is a classic no longer a classic? When you crush it and turn it into a new prius.

    Bill W.


    Motorbill
    From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon
  •  03-01-2009, 1:21 PM 18242 in reply to 18239

    Re: Classic Car Definition

    Hi.folks,i'm going to start something now,as i am at a loose end at the moment.

    Did you know that there are two classes of English classic MG.First there is the genuine classic English MG which has right hand drive,chrome bumpers,and not tinkered with to lower the emissions output ,or raise the ride height etc.

    These MGs are the proper classic cars which are cherished by all the eccentric englishmen who own them ,love them and cherish them.

    Then there are the other type of mg,which was sold to america / overseas countrys,to make the sales figures up.These mgs are left hand drive,with raised suspension,rubber bumpers and emission control fitted etc.These will never be a proper classic English car.And are not worth a lot of money when advertised for sale.

    Lets change the subject a bit,if you went to a flying legends airshow in england and saw a mk.9 spitfire fitted with a meshershmitt engine,and a pair of wings from a me109 german fighter,would you still call it a spitfire.I don't think so,you would probably ask for your admission money back,as you had been cheated.

    An MG is an MG not because somebody has changed 90% of the car,in order to make it more 'modern'.But because somebody has had the sense not to,and by keeping true to the original design,only then can you enjoy the wonderfull feeling of owning and driving a genuine english classic car.

    that should be enougth for now

    Phil


    phil wilkins
  •  03-01-2009, 4:56 PM 18245 in reply to 18242

    Re: Classic Car Definition

    Nice thread.

    It reminds me of a similar discussion I had with Mrs H the other evening: say I obtained full blueprints for some unobtainable piece of motoring history, and set to work in my garage to make a faithful reproduction of, say, an Auto Union type C, or a BRM V16.

    Would I have a "classic" car at the end of my labours, or would it always be just a reproduction, regardless of the degree of perfection? It surely could provide the driving experience intended by the designer.

    As to our lovely classics I think, to those who "get it" it is about the enjoyment of simplicity, in a car designed to provide fun for everyone. When burbling around in the 'B I feel so much more involved, and in control. Last week I had the opportunity to drive a brand new Toyota Hybrid people wagon thing. Blecchk! As my friend (the owner) put it - "it's like driving a microwave".

    How much does it take to change that classic quality in to something else? and how much should we distinguish classic-ness from originality? I suppose new parts, to the old design do little to change things, the spirit of the car and its design remain. Tossing out the engine in favour of a Chevy V6 has redrawn the car in my opinion. Of course people take pleasure in these projects, and the end results can be spectacular and impressive.

    All good musings for a wet Sunday afternoon in California.

    Cheers,

     Ed

     


    I want my MGB