Moss Motors, Ltd

Engines -engines- engines---

It's not how fast you are down the straights- It's how fast you are around the track!

Tell us some of the handling mods you have made and the good and bad about each one,. level of difficulty, expense, problem it solved/created or maybe one you were thinking about and haven't tried or any thing else that pops into your head regarding handling.

LCJUTILA 

An autocross guy once told me "horsepower only gets you to the next turn"

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72 MGB 80 TR8
Pittsburgh PA

From my experience as well as what I've both read and heard you get the best bang for the buck with polyurethane suspensiion bushings. Really tightens up the suspension transitions, so there's little or no delay in responding to inputs from the steering wheel and the road feel is not diluted either. I don't find the ride harsh either.

Also for most MGs the addition of a larger front sway bar seems to help quite a bit. Again not terribl expensive, and easy to bolt on. Go ahead and use the poly bushings here as well.

For Midgets with more restricted rear wheel well room the addition of a panhard rod helps to run larger tires without rubbing on the sheet metal. A litte more involved, some drilling to the chassis required, but still basically a bolt on.

Of course keeping your shocks in good condition is a must. I don't think most tube shock conversions are really worth the effort if your lever shocks are fully topped off and in good condition. Increased rate valving is available for the front shocks on Bs also. I'm not sure about vavles for the Midget.

I used nylatron bushings in the front of my V6 Midget, along with poly bushings for the larger sway bar and poly bushings in the sway bar links. The rear has traction bars and a panhard rod with increased rate springs. It's stiff but not overly harsh and handles nearly neutral with just a hint of understeer. With the added power I can add oversteer with the throttle pedal when I want to.

Most MGs have enough rubber contact with the road with stock size tires, but if you have good balanced handling and are looking for a little more grip then larger tires are a relatively inexpensive way to go. Might make a few mph difference in a corner just because the increased grip will carry a little more speed.  Larger tires are usually the first thing we add to our cars, but usually we really can't take full advantage of them until we get the other things I've mentioned sorted, then the car really will respond.

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'73 Midget (V6)
'59 MGA (I6) under construction
'73 Lotus Europa
'52 MG TD kit car body project.
'98 Jag XK8

"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"

Alright, I started it  (Motorbiil was complaining) so I'm going to put some slightly "out of the box" ideas out there for a response.

The first car I owned was a 1967 Austin Healey Sprite and if I owned it today with the lack of funds I had back then these are some of the things I might try:

1) Lower and move back my seating position if at all possible. The driver is the heaviest  movable component in a small car.

  Benefit- would lower and move back center of gravity helping overall cornering and turn in.

2) Move the battery to the far back passenger side corner of the trunk. As low as possible.

  Benefit- would counterbalance the weight of the driver side to side in the car and increase rear traction so you could put the power down sooner and harder coming out of a turn. also would increase weight over drive wheel. Also help turn in.

 3)Maybe- safety allowing- look into lowering gas tank. This is one of the heaviest components in the car that you could move.
   Benefit- lower center of gravity.

 4) Remove folding top and mechanism- only drive on sunny days

 Benefit- lower center of gravity, quicker around corners-less weight, quicker down straight.

5) leave spare at home and carry a can of Fix-a-Flat. Ditto for jack.

  Benefit- lower weight, quicker through turns and down straight.
6 ) Front and rear bumpers? Bye-bye!

  Benefit- Lower weight and polar moment of enertia. Better transitional response.

7) Really work on adjusting tire pressures for best handling.

8) lose hub-caps- unnecessary weight.  Better sprung to unsprung ratio. (Hey, every little bit helps!)

9) Take ALL loose change out of pockets, wear only a T-shirt and shorts, Spit alot. Every bit of weight savings in these small cars helps.

Ain't spent a dime!

LCJUTILA
 

LCJ,

Thanks for starting the discussion.

But really, how are you going to move that battery back there without spending any money? And, what'd that can of fix-a-flat cost?

I haven't got the time today, but let's start right at the beginning. Wheel loading, cornering force, and generated slip angles. The very first thing anybody who wants to improve the roadholding capabilitiy of their vehicle can do is your number seven. Optimize tire pressures. The principles, reasons, and methods will have to wait. I actually do have to run a real live 7200 square foot shop all day, every day. Damn!

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Motorbill-

Cost?

Stole'em

When I was a kid I was a reprobate.

LCJUTILA

(I was going to talk about corner weights and bathroom scales but you have to start somewhere) 

LC,

So, tell me, when did you stop being a reprobate? And how do you get your car into the bathroom? I know a Europa's pretty small, but.....

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Motorbill-

I get the car into the bathroom just like you would.

Through the bedroom -

Make a left.

LCJUTILA 

# 10  Stop at a Walgreens & pick up a Fleet enema.  Should shed some more pounds cause it's really getting deep around here.  Plus when that gas tank explodes from hitting the ground ya won't mess up those brand new shorts! LOL

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72 MGB 80 TR8
Pittsburgh PA

O.K., here's my formula for my 72 B GT:

Urethane bushings EVERYWHERE. Larger front sway bar, heavy duty valves w/ 30w oil in the front shocks. Tube shocks out back. Car lowered to 13 1/2" ride height. Moss traction bars out back. Negative camber kit ( 1.2 degrees negative camber ) 1/16" toe out. Kumho 185 60 14 Victoracers on 14 X 5.5 Minilites. Late model tranny mount with the bar going to the engine,( Helps weight transfere ) Engine cross braced to fender well. ( gets the torque to the rear end instead of the motor mounts ) Car handles like a slot car.

Must be doing something right.......6 time OKCSCCA class champion in F/SP

Won't bore you with all the engine mods. As we say here, "Drag racing is for fast cars, autocrossing is for fast drivers" Or, NASCAR drivers go fast and turn left. Autocrosser's go fast and turn left.......then right....then left.........

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"Cogito ergo Zoom"
"Love your freedom? Thank a Veteran"

Mad  Mike-

Six time champ!? I am not worthy. That says more about your driving ability than your great mods to the car. Awesome!

Some questions:

1) Does bracing the engine as you describe cause the engine vibrations to transfer to the car in a way that might make the car unpleasant as a daily driver?

2) Doe you really run it with toe-out? What problem does that solve or what result do you acheive?

3) From what point on the car do you measure that 13 1/2 inch ride height? 

4) Describe the "Bar going to the engine" in more detail, I'm not familiar with it. In what direction is the weight transfer?

5) Everyone talks about the larger front sway bar. What problem do you feel it solves or how do you feel it makes the car handle better and why do you think so (How does it work)?

thanks

LCJUTILA 

LCJUTILA,

Thanks for the kind words. I'll try to give you some intelligent answers. All my mods have been done over the 6 seasons. First piece of advise would be don't do to much at one time. Try one mod at at time so you can see and feel the difference in handleing.

1. My car is very stiff. Not bone jarring, but it's not a luxury car ride. The body absorbes any vibrations, of which there are few. Balancing the motor sure helps.

2.Yes, I run toe out for autocrossing. It does make the steering a little darty on the street, but the trade off is faster turn in.

3.Measure ride height from the bottom of the chrome strip to the center of the hubs.

4.The engine steady bar goes from the area where the alternator is mounted parallel to the engine forming a 90 degree angle, level with the engine.It stops the engine from torquing over. As for weight transfere, the late model tranny mount ties the engine and tranny to the x-member underneath the car. Under acceleration/brakeing there is no shift of weight due to inertia.

5. Larger sway bar helps control body lean on cornering. However, using too large a sway bar can cause understeer. Larger sway bars are almost a must when using modern grippy tires.

Hope this helps you!

Cheers!

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"Cogito ergo Zoom"
"Love your freedom? Thank a Veteran"

Mad Mike-

Very interesting! More questions using your #'s for reference:

1) So your engine still has the traditional motormounts but you added this bar to secure the engine from winding up and unwinding under acceleration and decceleration. Between this and #4 have you ever considered just bolting the whole thing in ala formula 1 cars? It would stiffen up that front end. (I've thought about this in my Lotus but I think then the vibration would be too radical.)

2) Have you considered changing the ackerman angle so that you could have zero toe down the straights and not scrub off speed with that toe out while having the inside wheel turn in quicker than it does now when you turn the wheel giving you the same benefit as toe out? This would also cut down on darting under braking.

3) I've never heard of measuring ride height from there. I believe you but for a second I thought you were pulling my leg!

4)  So to clarify your description of weight transfer to see if I understand, you mean the engine and tranny want to shift fore and aft under braking and acceleration and because they are heavy you get a kind of delayed weight transfer that takes some of the crispness out of braking and accelerating and slows the generation of grip at the tires at either end of the car.

5) So the sway bar is more to keep the suspension geometry on the front end together and minimize positive camber generated by "Body Lean" than to change the loading on the outside front tire compared to the outside rear tire even though it does have that  effect also? Or do you think your stiffer rear springs balance out the effect?

I like these ideas and I think they could be used to good end on alot of cars!

You've got me thinking. 

LCJUTILA
 

LC,

 Sorry about not getting back to you sooner. I've been buried at work all week.

Solid motor mounts would be illegal in my class. Plus, that would be really rough on the street. Same with changing the  Ackerman angle. Damn those pesky rules!

As for the weight transfere, you are correct in your understanding.

Cheers!

Mike

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"Cogito ergo Zoom"
"Love your freedom? Thank a Veteran"

Hey Mike, I hate to sound dumb but what is the Ackerman angle?

 

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Bayless
Never express yourself more clearly than you can think
'48 Prefect
'67 Sprite (project)