Moss Motors, Ltd

Hi

I am considering changing from points to electronic ignition on my Mini 1000 Traveller.  Looking at the previous posts two names come up, Pertronix or Crane. Crane seems to be favourite for one person in particular

My questions are then, which to go for? How simple is the conversion? Do I need to replace the coil? Any other changes required - leads, disi cap...

Thanks

Darrel,

First, either product is a vast improvement over points and condenser for both reliability and performance. I have experience, in my shop, installing and following up on both brands. Overall, as I believe you have surmised, I prefer the Crane "Fireball" unit. However, each has its own strengths and weaknesses. The one you choose will depend on the qualities which match your skills and your expected outcome.

PERTRONIX:                        PROs:     Very easy installation. also, the installer doesn't have to grasp concepts concerning relative positioning of components

                                           Nothing shows outside the distributor

                                                         Very quick installation

                .                             CONs:     Pretty reliable, but not as reliable as the Crane unit in my experience

                                          Not as accurate firing. This may not make a great deal of difference to some. It does to me.

                                           There is no self diagnostic capability.

                                           Without an amplifier unit, the performance at start-up and low RPM is not brilliant.

CRANE FIREBALL:              PROs:      Very accurate optical trigger type

                                                          Reliability

                                                          Better starting and low RPM performance

                                                          Has a diagnostic LED on the external amplifier unit. This CAN be helpful.

                                          CONs:      Downright painful and critical installation with poor instructions

                                                          Much longer time to install

                                                         More wiring with an external "Black Box" which some find objectionable on a vintage car.

 

The biggest problem with the Crane product is that if it is installed ignorantly it will not perform well and may result in burnt ignition rotors and caps due to the coil firing when the rotor is "out of index". We have now installed so many of these that it isn't a problem. However, I will warn that we have had a number of customer installed units show up here not running because of this index phenomenon, which not everyone seems to grasp.

So, there you have it. If you catch on to relative motion concepts and understand the basics of ignition, I would recommend the Crane Fireball. If you are a bit unsteady in this area, and don't want to tackle something like this (really, it's not all that difficult), compromose a tiny bit and install the Pertronix. As I said at the beginning, either way, you'll be making a big improvement.

 

 

 

 

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Darrel,

This topic was recently discussed in "Austin-Healey Sprite/MG Midget » Mechanical » Re: Flamethrower conversion".

Motorbill summed it all up nicely. Flamethrower is more difficult to install but better in ways. Petronix is more "Plug & Play" so to speak, and not bad overall.

I went with the Petronix and I'm happy with it...the choice is yours my friend!

Cheers.. 

 

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

Thanks Motorbill and Davey for your input. Helpful as always. Confusion seems to abound about "Fireballs" and "Flamethrowers". From what I can see Fireballs belong to the Crane systems.  Flamethrowers is a complete distributor that you can use to replace the current distributor - and are made by Pertronix.  Then there is the ignitor kit that you use to replace the existing points set up.  I hope I have this correct.

It sounds like the simplest and most economical solution is the ignitor kit installation.  As I am still quite new to the world of classic British motoring I will take your advice Motorbill and go for the Pertronix.

Thanks for the help

Not to add to the confusion, but, just for the record....

It was motrobill whom wrote, "I would recommend the Crane Fireball.", and also suggested that the Petronix would be a bit of a compromise. Also for the record, I agree with him, (from what I've read), but I'm happy with the Petronix that I installed in my Spridget.

In either case, as motorbill said, you'll be making a big improvement over the original equipment.

Good luck, and happy motoring!

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

One thing to remember with electronic ignition is once you decide which one you want to fit is not to leave your car in the on position without starting it! The is the most common cause of failure. The amplifier gets hot and simply burns out! Not Good. My personal choice is Luminition, has an optical chopper and very accurate but has an external amplifier. Magnatronic by the same company are also very good and I have one fitted to my old series 3 Land Rover which goes off road in mud and water quite a lot so Magnatronic was the perfect choice Its very simalar to the Pertronix

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Oz Cooper
Classic Mini Guru UK

Oz,

True enough about leaving the ignition on, but of course, even with points and condenser leaving the ignition on can result in the demise of various ignition components, including the coil...

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Leaving the ignition ON without the engine running introduces DC to the system rather than the AC for which it was designed. This will cause the coil and ballast resistors/wire to heat up too much.

Herin lies the difference between Edison and Tesla ! Is there any wonder why the world is wired Tesla's way (AC) rather than Edison"s (DC)?

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

Hi gents 

Lumenition provide you with 2 options by the looks of things - the Optronic kit - this has an external amplifier; and the Magnetronic kit - this seems very similar to the Pertronix Ignitor.  Both seem (according to their website) simple to install.

Is there any difference in performance and reliability?  Would you rate Lumenition above Pertronix?

Darrel

motorbill66:

Oz,

True enough about leaving the ignition on, but of course, even with points and condenser leaving the ignition on can result in the demise of various ignition components, including the coil...

 

Very true! however replacment points and condenser will cost under a tenner but a new electronic kit will be £85! thats why i pointed it out 

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Oz Cooper
Classic Mini Guru UK

Yup,

Then again, a good coil ain't exactly free either!

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

Hi

So the question is still out there - Lumenition or Pertronix?  Or is there nothing to choose betwwen them? 

 

Darrel,

It's MY OPINION that the optical systems, such as Luminition or Crane Fireball are more accurate and perform better, as well as offering more reliability. The Pertronix, or other proximity, or Hall Effect types are easier to install, and offer that plus much better reliability than points and condensers. I can't make it plainer than that. Remember, this is my opinion, not God's word. Anyone else?

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Motorbill
From Lola to Land Rover, If it's British and has wheels, it's likely I've bloodied me knuckles thereupon

What we are actually discussing here is the differences in two types of electronic transducers, Hall-Effect (magnetic), and optical. Simply stated, greater resolution is possible with optical sensors...period. The question is, does that greater resolution really matter in the system? Considering the multiplication of tolerances, coupled with other concerns such as vibration, temperature changes and it's effect on mechanical assemblies, etcetera, the improved resolution may be insignificant.

There is another point. Hall-Effect sensors, although less precise as optical, will trigger at the same Gauss field strength consistently.  Here is an analogy: Imagine a lighthouse beacon. A conventional beacon is akin to a Hall-Effect sensor, the beam may be 3' wide as it moves across your boat, but it always repeats at the same interval. Now imagine that same light house that using a laser beam. That beam may only be 1 " wide across your boat, but it too always arrives at the same time. Now imagine your boat being bounced around by waves, How significant is the difference under these circumstances?

Motorbill's experience cannot be ignored. He states that the optical is more accurate and he's right, theoretically. The Hall-Effect sensor will also get the job done though, and slightly tweaking the timing may improve its performance. What I mean by this is, if the Hall-Effect is very sensitive, then timing your engine 1/2 degree slower will compensate for that. If it's a bit lazy, then 1/2 degree sooner will compensate for THAT, and it will be just as accurate as the optical sensor for the life of the unit. 

Personally. I went with the Hall-Effect sensor (petronix), knowing full well that tighter resolution may be obtained with optical sensors. My decision was based on cost and ease of installation. I am happy with my decision but if you feel that cost equals quality, then go with the optical.

In either case, you will be very happy just to get rid of the points & condenser. This is truly a decision where you can't go wrong!

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On their death bed, nobody ever said, "Gee I wish I'd spent more time at work!"

'68 Sprite 1275
'76 Midget 1500

OK davey, sounds like you and the " Physics Guy" are at it again.  Good illustration....if it's valid..

 I have the Pertronix and from the comments I've read on the 6-pack Forum, it seems that there are 2, no 3, common problems that folks encounter. 1. Neglecting to reset their ignition timing. 2. Confusion as how to handle a ballasted coil. And 3. forgetting to replace the rotor.